Markets Live chat transcript for the chat ending at 15:05 on 30 Sep 2011. Participants in this chat were: Cardiff Garcia Lisa Pollack John McDermott, FT
CG
Well, let’s try this again
JM
Cardiff is such a perfectionist
CG
Sorry about that, tech issues plus fat finger = I accidentally shut us down last time
JM
That he didn’t like the opening banter
JM
So let’s make this happen
CG
Eesh, hope I haven’t lost us the Rabble
CG
you can give us a recap of your journey to the ciudad perdida
JM
Erm, I never ended up going.
JM
I was distracted by beaches and Cartagena.
CG
but you’ve got an impressive imagination, so i’ll believe you
CG
Stock indexes fell more than 1 percent at the open on Friday, putting equities on track for their fifth straight monthly decline, as China’s manufacturing shrank and stirred fears the global economy was slowing.
China’s factory sector eased for a third consecutive month in September, suggesting that the world’s second-largest economy is not immune to global headwinds, while factory inflation quickened.
CG
incomes fell last month
CG
though spending grew slightly, savings rate down
CG
All in all, given the weakness in personal income and the downward revision to spending in July, this is a softer than expected report. That said, real incomes (and real spending) should get a boost from the weakening in consumer energy prices in the coming months and a further rebound in auto sales as supply constraints ease. As a result, consumption growth in Q3, while modest, is likely to be around double the pace of Q2 (0.7%) and we continue to look for Q3 GDP growth of 2.0%.
JM
China is the new Europe?
CG
Yes, the world’s Buzzkiller in Chief for a day
CG
S&P now down 1.15 per cent on the day
L P
I have some more on China, from the PMI chaps
L P
“China reaffirmed its commitment to combating inflation today, despite HSBC PMI data signalling a continued stagnation of the country’s manufacturing sector against a backdrop of global financial and economic uncertainty. Perhaps the most worryingly aspect of the survey findings for the authorities, however, was an acceleration in input cost inflation to a four-month high. Although much slower than at the start of the year, the latest increase in costs provides a stark reminder that China’s battle with inflation has further to run.”
JM
(Sorry guys, massive tech issues over here.)
L P
PMI chaps = HSBI and Markit
CG
(We’ll talk Twist in a minute)
L P
China CDS widening out alongside.
JM
That’s interesting Lisa.
JM
Quite a few rumblings out there about Chinese slowdown.
CG
Yes, having an in-house CDS expert is most handy
JM
Not having been to China, I have no idea.
JM
But here’s a worring short note from Nomura just in.
JM
China: Credit crunch is worsening
JM
A subject we’ve covered a fair bit in the last year.
JM
Anecdotal evidence from media reports
suggests that with rising costs of labour,
commodities and capital, financing pressures
for small and medium sized enterprises are
building, but it is not clear how serious this
problem has become relative to the past. Many
investors have inquired about this issue.
JM
In order to understand better how serious the
problem is, we monitor the bill discount rate,
which is the financing cost for firms when they
sell commercial acceptance bills to banks for
cash. A higher bill discount rate is a signal that
the imbalance between supply and demand for
credit has worsened. The 6-month bill discount
rate has worsened at alarming pace since J
2011, rising to above 10%.
JM
The gap between the bill discount rate and the
interbank rate has widened to 5.7 percentage
points, the highest level since the data was
made available. China’s credit market is
becoming more fragmented. Financing costs
for firms without access to bank loans have
risen much more than those for large stateowned enterprises. The sharp rise in the bill
discount rate may be partly driven by property
developers who are facing worsening financing
conditions given the lackluster sales.
JM
Now, the Shibor isn’t as developed a metric as Libor
JM
And we don’t have a lot of historical data
JM
But it doesn’t sound good
CG
(Mutant, for a partial answer to your question re banks and European exposure, check out JM’s post citing Goldman’s research from earlier this week)
JM
@mutant_dog: HSBC, StCh, Citi (I think)
L P
I heard that if the Chinese authorities are going to take a stab at tightening,
L P
to combat inflation (see quote above), they might do so next week..
L P
Since it’s a holiday.
L P
Nice and quiet-like, easy does it.
L P
Don’t scare the markets.
JM
Weekend tightening is all the rage.
JM
a bit more from Citi on China
JM
The credit stimulus remains substantial, and appears to create something of a virtuous
circle: since credit extension remains high, so does investment spending; and since
investment spending remains high, so does GDP growth; and since GDP growth
remains high, asset quality in the financial sector remains healthy-looking. Yet the
recent decline in the marginal efficiency of investment spending raises some questions
about how easily this virtuous circle can be sustained.
On the face of it, China seems less vulnerable to an external shock than it was preLehman, since net exports are making a much smaller contribution to GDP growth than
they used to — another consequence of the credit stimulus. Yet China’s vulnerability to
global slowdown shouldn’t be underestimated: total exports account for more than a
quarter of GDP and the export sector employs a big army of labor.
JM
Let that sit for a sec.
JM
This is US Markets Live after all.
JM
So what’s happening in the second best country in the world?
CG
time for a markets roundup
JM
S&P 500 1,152.23 -8.17 (-0.70%)
JM
Dow Jones 11,110.84 -43.14 (-0.39%
JM
On the back of the good consumer data.
JM
3:21pm A Reader: MS down 7%.
JM
Morgan Stanley is the new BofA?
L P
They both belong to the inverted CDS curve club.
JM
I ask, because LP had a fascinating post this morning.
L P
CDS referencing Morgan Stanley..
L P
In terms of relative rankings, are the 25th biggest credit.
L P
It’s really the combination of the two things though
L P
The 5 year spread, which is the most liquid point, is widening
CG
(so fascinating that it was replicated across the interwebs, not that you’d know it given suspect attribution policies elsewhere. But whatevs, we’re not annoyed.)
L P
and also the curve is inverting.
L P
Which signals more near-term worries
L P
With Bank of America, it’s the litigation issue, I think
JM
Is that a good indicator? Or do we know too little?
L P
and the uncertainty around that.
L P
Where’s with Morgan Stanley, the inversion is new
JM
Well with BofA everything is a litigation issue
L P
Quoting from a Moody’s Analytics note
L P
The first [concern] is the exposure of MS to European institutions and the second is the level of trading revenues in the third quarter. MS reported in its second quarter earnings call that net exposure to the GIIPS countries was $5 billion on a gross and $2 billion on a net basis. However, some sources have recently focused on their FFIEC1 reported gross exposures of $39 billion to French banks, which we believe overstates their actual risks significantly.
L P
But note the “gross” there.
L P
Once you look at net, Moodys Analytics thinks the widening is overblown.
L P
But in the meantime, MS and Bank of America are in a race to the bottom
JM
The US bank exposure to Europe thing
JM
Oft dismissed (“net far less than gross”)
L P
@Jarvis2009 makes a good point
L P
3:27pm Jarvis2009: Yes, LP issue is that Net doesn’t matter in event of a crisis
JM
But important to remember….
L P
There’s a counterparty issue there.
JM
Ah, was just about to say something to that effect, but less well
L P
And the interconnectedness of it all.
L P
When push comes to shove.
L P
When there is an actual jump to default
L P
you better be happy about who your longs and shorts are with.
JM
I think Goldman, of all people, had a good summary of the situation in a note earlier this week
JM
Since the market turmoil in Europe began, a lot of attention has been paid to how exposed the money center banks are to Europe. While US banks’ aggregate dollars of exposure is sizeable as presented as shown in Exhibit 5, we note two things: (1) the numbers presented are gross in nature and do not account for hedges, collateral, margin, etc., that significantly reduce exposure and (2) for US banks exposure to GIIPS countries in particular, about three fourths of the exposure is not direct foreign claims, it is gross notional derivatives and unfunded commitments that significantly inflate the exposure. While unfunded commitments could turn into riskier funded commitments, lines generally have standard conditions that need to be met before being drawn.
JM
The net exposure at the banks appears very manageable, with exposure ranging from $3.2 bn (gross for WFC) to $16.7bn at BAC. That said, the bigger concerns are indirect impacts including contagion, a sell-off in risk assets (CMBX/ABX down 7%/22% qtd), and risk aversion. We believe capital market revenues will suffer in 3Q11 as banks are forced to take mark-downs on inventory, something we have not seen since 2009.
JM
So, we’ll see, let’s not make any gross assumptions, etc
JM
We’ll keep an eye on MS
JM
Newsroom positively buzzing about semiconductors
CG
Shall we talk Twist for a minute first?
JM
And some kind of golf cart manufacturer that is down 15%
JM
Yes, anything to avoid talking about golf
CG
how will i get to the office if the golf cart companies shut down?
JM
As Sam Cooke and Frightened Rabbit would say
JM
(Wow, imagine that duet)
CG
story in the WSJ today quoting bond traders
CG
gurus, etc.. you know what i mean
CG
anyways, their argumennt
CG
is that Twist will have as big an effect as QE2 because of duration removed from the market
CG
“Operation Twist has greater punch than the QE2 program, or should,” said Ray Stone, an economist at Stone & McCarthy Research, a firm that focuses on research for the bond market.
CG
Barclays Capital analysts suggest that Operation Twist will remove roughly $375 billion in 10-year equivalents from the market.
Credit Suisse put that number at $436 billion in 10-year equivalents from the market, more than the roughly $412 billion pulled out of the Treasury market during QE2. Goldman Sachs analysts estimate the impact at roughly $400 billion.
CG
around htere, i’ve seen some estimates go a bit higher
CG
anyways, thought i’d note it and also point out that
CG
this is still supposed to work through the wealth effect channel, and that I’m skeptical the decline in mortgage rates from the MBS-buying part of the program will lead to as much refi activity as these people seem to think
CG
so it might be a kind of stealth QE2, but I’d question its potency. that is all
CG
But there was another interesting treasury-related issue from thursday, spotted by RBS this morning
CG
@shaunrc999, yep, this would only help at the margins, at best (just my guess)
CG
As the risk-on, risk-off roller coaster continues, some Treasury market participants have raised their eyebrows at the release of yesterday’s Fed custody holdings data. Within the Fed balance sheet, updated weekly on Thursday’s at 4:30 PM, is a line that reports “Marketable securities held in custody for foreign official and international accounts.” Thursday’s report showed foreign official holdings of Treasuries fell -$25bn, and holdings of agencies and agency MBS fell -$9bn. Since August 31st, Treasury holdings have fallen -$55bn.
Are foreign central banks rejecting Operation Twist? Are they using these low yields to finally diversify away from Treasuries? While I don’t have a direct answer for these questions, I would argue the sales in US Treasury and agency holdings are more directly related to the dollar. It’s well known that up to a few weeks ago, emerging market central banks from South America to Asia have been fighting appreciation of their currencies often driven by capital inflow and investments seeking yield and return with developed world rates extremely low. The “EM outperform DM” theme has been with us for some time. In order to slow the appreciation of their currencies, these countries have, among other things, sold their own currencies to buy dollars. This in turn builds up their $ reserves. Those dollar reserves end up generally being invested in Treasuries and in some cases agencies or agency MBS. Note I am greatly generalizing here, not all nations fit this description of course.
JM
So, RBS is saying that the Fed data are saying that foreign central banks are selling Treasuries?
CG
Shaunrc999, yeah, NY Fed Soma report coming out today, though I haven’t checked what time (might have even happened since we started
JM
1. Are the Fed data really saying that?
JM
2. What does it all mean?
JM
(Q2 is useful in all circumstances btw)
CG
I think that’s RBS’s point, which is that although it seems they are selling limited amount, it’s to do with their current efforts to prop up their own currencies and sell dollars, so probably not a sustainable trend
CG
goes to show how crazy things are now — normally many of these countries (notably Brazil) actively resist their currencies strengthening, but now they’re worried about outright collapse
CG
shothotbot, yes, the portfolio balance channel is the immediate mechanism, but the point made by these bond guys is that the end goal is the same — push people out of safer assets and into riskier ones, and thereby push up asset prices. Wealth effect
JM
Isn’t it a move to stop appreciation?
CG
no, they’re selling dollars to stop their currencies depreciating beneath a floor. that’s what’s twisted about it
CG
prevent a collapse. as i said, and as i think RBS is implying here, it’s to signal that these govs will prevent an outright collapse, though the actual sums aren’t (yet) very high
CG
@Attitude, oh I’m not endorsing the policy, just trying to understand it. My best guess is that it won’t make much difference in either direction, but yes, the potential for distortion is always there
JM
@mutant-dog: i’m going to New Jersey on Saturday
CG
A Reader, must I unholster the Milky zapper, is he nearby?
CG
JM, any insights to gain from your Colombia trip?
JM
From my on-the-ground investigative reporting?
JM
Perhaps, not sure how interesting it is for ML folk
JM
A few random obvs, after speaking with a few bankers in Bogota
JM
1. Mutterings that Bogota could replace Mexico City as the hub for north Lat Am and central America.
JM
Given the security situation.
JM
Which is an amazing thought.
CG
(Did Mexico City replace Miami since I’ve been away?)
JM
2. Venezuelans increasingly coming to spend their money in Bogota.
JM
There’s a sense in which Bogota is the Beirut (again, not the best example) of northern lat am. A place for oil rich Vens
JM
I was taken on a tour of a few new apt buildings
JM
And the banker i was with commented that the most expensive ones were being bought by (1) shakira, (2) venezuelans
JM
Caveat: I haven’t checked any of this, it’s all bar room talk with friends of friends
JM
3. It’s a beautiful country
JM
4. (As everyone seems to ask this) the only cocaine selling i saw on offer was to gap yaaar students, all colombians i spoke to couldn’t give a monkeys
CG
@sir incompetent has an interesting question
JM
3:56pm sir incompetent mcbonus: @jm chinese interest?
JM
Erm, I don’t know. I’m not an expert, I just went on holiday there.
CG
@Goladaman, hah, have you been preserving that comment about the reds in a time capsule since the late-80s?
JM
I’d assume that given the importance of mining, yes.
JM
5. Actually this was interesting. Couple of (small) fund managers told me that gold mines were being reopened because of the gold price.
JM
Anyway, that’s all I’ve got.
JM
Apart from a Mozillo-style tan
JM
(Oh and 6. The Scots weren’t wrong that Darien could have been a paradise.)
JM
Anwyay, let’s go, apols for a slightly sluggish sesh.
CG
(Jarvis, saw that, and yep)
JM
due to insufficient coffee intake
JM
We didn’t even talk about Europe
CG
excessive intake of other beverages the prior night
JM
Which is still there, last time I checked
CG
plenty of coverage on the site, of course
JM
award-winning site, yes
CG
anyways,we gotta go everyone
JM
@Old Hand — yes, crazy.
CG
we’ll be back next week, hopefully with more fodder and more verve
JM
See: http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2011/09/29/689366/what-baseball-can-tell-us-about-financial-crises/
JM
Hasta Luego (see what I learned?)