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Emergency Markets Live transcript 18 Aug 2011

Markets Live chat transcript for the chat ending at 15:28 on 18 Aug 2011. Participants in this chat were: John McDermott Joseph Cotterill, FT Paul Murphy Cardiff Garcia Izabella Kaminska

JM
Warning
JM
Warning
JM
Emergency Markets Live
JM
Circuit breakers have been tripped
JM
Neil is at the cricket
JC
Well that didn’t take much for it all to kick off, did it
JC
And hello everyone
JM
Yes, manners, sorry — hello
JM
What are we looking at?
JC
Cripes, I’m supposed to phone Neil if we do an emergency ML…
JC
Pandaemonium. Shall I do the European indices while you do US?
JM
Yes
JC
We’d better watch the 10-year TSY as well
PM
Hi there
JM
Dow Jones 11,066.15 -344.06 (-3.02%
PM
De-Humed eh
JM
S&P 500 1,154.50 -39.39 (-3.30%)
PM
At the cricket, in the rain…
JM
10yr at 2.03 pc and falling
JC
CAC 40 -4.31%, FTSE -3.8%, FTSE MIB -4.92%, Ibex 35 -4.56%
JC
Dax down 5% or so
JM
Not 14 per cent then on the eurofirst, as I thought for a second
JM
(Thanks mr reuters flashman)
JC
Yeah, woopsy Reuters correction
PM
What we talking here? Global / US growth, Tobin tax?
JC
Eurofirst down 14% in a month, Dax down 21% in a month
JM
So, do we have any idea why….?
PM
Want some RBS stuff?
CG
sorry i’m late guys, was just dusting off my Rule 48 primer
PM
Jacques Cailloux
JC
This started as a global growth scare in Europe so I’m sticking with that…
PM
Western world’s balance sheets weigh on activity
The most striking development over the past month in our view has been the growing realisation by market participants and policy makers that economic activity in a banking and sovereign crisis world cannot be anywhere as strong as in pre crisis times. Relative to our growth expectations at the end of last year for H1 2011 (See Global Economic Forecasts, 11 November 2010), US growth clearly disappointed with H1 coming at slightly less than 1% annualised or a third of our expectations. Europe came in broadly in line with our forecast slightly above 1%, still a relative poor performance for what was hoped to be a sustained recovery. (euro area growth averaged around 1% annualised in H1 in line with our forecast back in November while UK growth was around 1.4% annualised in H1 marginally above our 1.2% forecast back then). Moreover, our expectations for H2 have been revised down both in the US and Europe where we now expect a much more moderate pace of expansion, around 2.0% in the US, close to stagnation in the euro area and around 1.5% in the UK. These new growth forecasts – if validated – would be sub par relative to previous business cycle recoveries.
PM
All eyes on policy response, but there is no quick fix
Another lesson of the past month and perhaps a more daunting one is that there is no magic wand that can take the excess debt that has been built up over the past 10 years in some part of the system and start from a clean balance sheet. Policies can only mitigate the negative fallout on demand from the deleveraging process in the private and public sectors. Unfortunately, markets have grown increasingly frustrated with the fact that policies in the Western world do not seem to address the core of the problem (ie do not contribute to a more rapid decline in debt through the regeneration of nominal growth or more aggressive write-downs where this has already started). The fact and the matter is that there is no policy that can achieve this without entering the more dangerous waters of large scale debt restructuring.
JM
Not the Reuters screw up
PM

Euro area problems cannot be fixed in the short term
The above point is particularly relevant to the euro area situation where there seems to be an increasing incoherence between the demands from market participants and what policy makers can offer. Indeed, the main take away from the Franco-German summit is perhaps exactly that: it would have been extremely hard to expect France or Germany to commit to expand the EFSF or propose a Eurobond both of which look unfeasible at this stage given the legal, political and economic constrains in the monetary union. This puts the onus squarely on the ECB (yet again!).
JM
Morgan Stanley paper?
JC
AAARGH that Philly Fed number
JC
10Y TSY 2.01
JC
Bund 10Y 2.066
JC
Which one’s going to below 2% first
CG
All Indicators Show Declines

The survey’s broadest measure of manufacturing conditions, the diffusion index of current activity, decreased from a slightly positive reading of 3.2 in July to -30.7 in August. The index is now at its lowest level since March 2009 (see Chart). The demand for manufactured goods, as measured by the current new orders index, paralleled the decline in the general activity index, falling 27 points. The current shipments index fell 18 points and recorded its first negative reading since September of last year. Suggesting weakening activity, indexes for inventories, unfilled orders, and delivery times were all in negative territory this month.

Firms’ responses suggest a deterioration in the labor market compared with July. The current employment index fell 14 points, recording its first negative reading in 12 months. About 18 percent of the firms reported an increase in employment, but 23 percent reported a decrease. The percentage of firms reporting a shorter workweek (28 percent) was greater than the percentage reporting a longer one (14 percent). The workweek index fell 9 points.

PM
Get to capture a screen print if it does
CG
that’s the philly Fed
CG
had to do a double-take
PM
Lorcan saying 10 T bills at 2.00
JC
We’re through! Below 2%
JM
Sorry, was talking about William Jennings Bryan with the boss
JM
And this is what I miss
CG
well, might be an increasingly relevant topic at the rate we’re going
JM
DJA touching -4%
JC
Italian and Spanish 10y spreads to Bunds both above 290bps
JM
(In meaningless indicator news)
CG
S&P down 4.3% now, just about touching 1140
JC
Someone better get on the bat-phone to the ECB
JM
Yes.
JM
Or to the B&Bs in Jackson Hole, Wyoming.
JC
I have Tsys at 1.998 meanwhile
PM
Jeez — this is really picking up steam. Dow off 500
JC
We’re puking, to coin a phrase.
JC
RBS off 12% in London, out of nowhere
PM
Buying oportunity in Sogen , obv
JM
Thursday, August 18, 2011 10:06:49 AM RTRS – BUND FUTURE AT RECORD HIGH, ON COURSE FOR BIGGEST DAILY RISE SINCE 1996, UP OVER 2 FULL POINTS ON DAY
JM
Micex suspended earlier
JM
JC, just going to break these US equities down a bit…
JM
BofA down 7.1& on my Reuters with delay
JM
Citi 6.8%
JM
Goodyear, steel, halliburton, f5
JM
All big fallers as well
JM
So just the war financers and war makers, nothing to worry about.
JM
(In an abstract sense, I hasten to add.)
JC
Yeah – not sure CNBC can pin this on the euro crisis somehow
JC
OK – 10-year Tips negative again
JC
UK 10-year gilt at 2.2 per cent, five-year gilt at 0958%
JM
How many rich countries have negative real rates in the medium/long-term?
JC
Gah. Everyone at this rate. UK, especially
PM
Did you share the MS strategy stuff on ML am? Or should I share?
JC
Overhearing that the Philly Fed fall was the second largest in its history
JC
Aha Cardiff just mentioned on the right
JC
Paul – think so, but worth mentioning again
PM
Cardiff Garcia:
From Bespoke re Philly Fed: The Philly Fed report was the biggest miss vs expectations (-30.7 vs +2.0) since at least 1998. $$
JM
Definitely Paul
PM
Let me did out the MS stuff again
PM
Dangerously Close to Recession

We cut our global GDP growth forecasts to 3.9% in 2011 and 3.8% in 2012, from 4.2% and 4.5%, respectively. DM growth looks set to average only 1.5% this year and next (down from 1.9% and 2.4% previously), making the BBB recovery even more bumpy, below-par and brittle.

EM isn’t immune, but generates 80% of global growth: We now see EM growth decelerating from 7.8% in 2010 to 6.4% (6.6% previously) this year, and further to 6.1% (6.7%) in 2012. Given its 50% (PPP) weight in global GDP, EM generates 80% of global GDP growth. EM policy-makers are likely to cushion domestic growth, but drastic policy stimulus remains unlikely.

A policy-induced slowdown: The main reasons for our growth downgrade, apart from disappointing incoming data, are recent policy errors in the US and Europe plus the prospect of further fiscal tightening there in 2012. This is eroding business and consumer confidence and has weighed down on financial markets. A negative feedback loop between weak growth and soggy asset markets now appears to be in the making.

Dangerously close to recession, but not our base case: Our revised forecasts show the US and the euro area hovering dangerously close to a recession – defined as two consecutive quarters of contraction – over the next 6-12 months. It won’t take much in the form of additional shocks to tip the balance. Still, recession is not our base case because: i) the corporate sector looks healthy; ii) household real incomes will be supported by lower headline inflation; and iii) we expect more action from central banks, including rate cuts and more non-standard easing from the Fed and the ECB.

Why this is not 2008: Initial conditions are better now – household, corporate and bank balance sheets were much weaker, monetary policy was tight, and the Lehman collapse meant that the financial system totally seized up. Any plausible recession scenario in 2011-12 should be much shallower than in 2008-09.

PM
That’s the summary. if you want me, drop me a line: paul.murphy@fttilt.com
PM
Emoticon
JM
That was a Brando in Superman style cameo
JM
From PM there
CG
S&P 500 stabilizing around 1140, it seems
JM
(Incidentally, those deficit projections in the US are looking sillier and sillier)
CG
Dow at 10960, no longer down more than 4%
JM
Let’s take a quick look at other news, did we do the WSJ thingy this morning?
CG
(praxis, lol)
CG
hit us, JM
JM
Federal and state regulators, signaling their growing worry that Europe’s debt crisis could spill into the U.S. banking system, are intensifying their scrutiny of the U.S. arms of Europe’s biggest banks, according to people familiar with the matter.
CG
not too hard
JM
WSJ splash this morning
JM
There’s a bit of “NY Fed does job” about it
CG
well, there are times when that actually *is* news, but go on
JM
But JC pointed out that the real lede is buried in the final paras
JM
In recent weeks, though, the cash piles at foreign banks’ U.S. arms have diminished. While individual banks haven’t reported data after June 30, foreign banks’ overall U.S. cash reserves fell to $758 billion as of Aug. 3, the latest data available. That is down 16% from three weeks earlier, though it’s still up sharply from the beginning of the year.

The latest Fed data “could be telltale signs that foreign banks are in need [of dollars] again, or institutional investors are getting concerned about foreign bank credit,” said George Goncalves, a rates strategist for Nomura Securities.

JM
If that continues, it’ll be interesting. But wait and see, etc.
PM
John, you had an interesting AV post on institutional cash pools — and the likelihood of encouraging bank runs…
JM
Thanks, I was basically just trying to get my head around Izzy’s genius
PM
yes, of course
PM
Interesting theme tho.
JM
Yes.
JM
Killer stat for me was that in 1990
JM
Uninsured deposits were 5% of insured deposits
JM
Now it’s 55%
PM
(BE — v funny)
PM
(http://sexyalevels.tumblr.com/)
JM
Suggesting that the fed architecture, FDIC caps, etc. is less powerful in stopping bank runs, should they occur.
PM
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9567000/9567294.stm)
JM
We’re not live blogging A-level results
JM
But congratulations to everyone
JM
Welcome to 27,000GBP of debt
PM
hehe
JM
@AA — mircex suspended earlier
PM
Equities on the mend a bit?
PM
Tilt market in the dog house, natch
JM
Little bit
JM
Dow Jones 10,970.56 -439.65 (-3.85%
JM
S&P 500 1,144.60 -49.29 (-4.13%
PM
Brazil off 5%
CG
(Yeesh, 5-year breakevens down 2.1% — should we totally ignore hot July CPI?): http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=USGGBE05:IND
PM
What’s a Tilt market? find out here: tilt.ft.com
CG
(markets are)
PM
NH: Yellow murphy
JM
Right
JM
Is the panic over
JM
Can we bring out the monkey?
JM
@Rosencruz asks an important question
JM
3:27pm Rosencruz: Given the fabled “ML” effect, is it really responsible to declare emergency ML’s whenever the market drops?
JM
In response
JM
1. Our circuit breaker is based on magnitude, i.e could be a big rise or a big fall.
JM
But big falls — I think — are more likely than big rises.
JM
Ergo, et cetera
JM
2. Yes.
JM
Okay, I’m getting the feeling
JM
That my colleagues
JM
Have gone for lunch
CG
well
CG
Joseph wrote a whole post while simultaneously conducting this chat
JC
Well, kind of.
JC
By the way, has BAC’s yield curve inverted? I heard reports earlier.
JM
Sure, but I’ve been simultaneously conducting a discussion about Thomas Jefferson and seeing if I can place a bet on the Hearts Spurs game.
PM
Equities sliding again
JM
@Lorcan, guest post!
CG
talented bunch of scatterbrains you are
JM
@Icarus, one tries.
JM
Okay. Is someone checking the BAC curve?
JC
Have we “stabilised” or not then?
CG
PM, which ones? S&P and Dow seem to be holding. what’s happening in europe?
JM
Meanwhile, what else is there…
JC
Um, lemme check
Barclays PLC (BARC:LSE): Last: 155.30, down 18.65 (-10.72%), High: 174.35, Low: 152.80, Volume: 50.08m
Royal Bank of Scotland Group PLC (RBS:LSE): Last: 22.04, down 2.71 (-10.95%), High: 24.55, Low: 21.63, Volume: 80.33m
Lloyds Banking Group plc (LLOY:LSE): Last: 30.20, down 2.64 (-8.05%), High: 32.77, Low: 29.40, Volume: 133.32m
JC
Not a lot of stabilisation there…
Xstrata PLC (XTA:LSE): Last: 983.90, down 98.1 (-9.07%), High: 1,065, Low: 962.20, Volume: 12.39m
JM
I’ll see your banks….
Glencore International PLC (GLEN:LSE): Last: 363.75, down 31.25 (-7.91%), High: 392.60, Low: 355.60, Volume: 4.28m
JM
BAC -7%; Citi -9%
JM
(I don’t have the fancy tickers)
PM
(CG — stablised again. i was jsut watching the future. US leading this one i think — london moving in step)
PM
Ive got a snap note from ING on the Philly stuff
PM
Here you go
PM
The Philly Fed index is only a regional index, and not always a reliable indicator of national manufacturing changes. But the fall in the index from 3.2 to -30.7 is the fifth largest ever month on month decline in this index since 1968, and takes the index down to levels it has not seen since February 2009. Despite a decent 0.9%mom rise in July, this index strongly suggests a pull back in August. But this index has been worse, and its weakest ever was -57.9, so we are still some way off this.

Existing home sales also remain weak according to the latest set of data. July existing home sales unexpectedly fell 3.5%MoM to 4.67m (saar), from an upwardly revised 4.84m in June. This was a surprise: Pending sales, recorded earlier in the purchase process, increased in May and June. This suggested a recovery of existing home sales. The fact that sales fell nonetheless, points to an increasing number of delays and contract cancellations. Mortgage lenders are taking their time and have become more strict. Some deals strand on low appraisals. It is telling that half of the buyers in July paid fully in cash.

Foreclosure activity has also slowed down considerably in recent months. Foreclosures accounted for a quarter of sales in the first months of the year, but are down to 17% of sales in July. At first glance this seems good news: fewer foreclosures mean less downward price pressure. But unfortunately foreclosures are not decreasing because the supply of distressed homes is running out. Instead, foreclosures are stalling because of delays and legal issues in the foreclosure process. Once mortgage lenders have their processes sorted out and legal disputes are settled, foreclosure activity will pick up again. While prices are stabilising now, they may well resume their fall once that happens.

Despite all this bad news, it is some comfort to see that the Conference Board leading indicators continue to point to growth ahead. So things may be bad in some sectors, and in some regions, but the longer term outlook for the whole economy seems to be holding together a little better.

Clearly, markets are in a fearful state right now, and data like this gives them plenty of excuses to panic. Market reactions are less about the data now, than about the degree of panic.

Rob Carnell
Teunis Brosens

CG
thank PM
JC
Do we know what ING predicted?
JC
Considering that I doubt anyone predicted -30, given consensus was -10…
JM
Droll.
CG
btw
CG
this might be a bad time to bring up this morning’s cpi
PM
JC — dunno
CG
but since the bloody markets interrupted my planned post
CG
Measured on a 3m/3m annualized rate, the core CPI was up 2.8% in July, the strongest since January 2008. In part this has reflected strong gains in volatile components such as lodging away from home, vehicles and apparel, which are unlikely to become the norm. However, there is now clear evidence that price pressures are building across a broad range of goods and services, despite the weak growth and labor market backdrop, consistent with our view that the degree of economic slack is not large (for more details, see Inflation dynamics are shifting, 2 June 2011.) For any policymaker with at least one eye on inflation it will be very difficult to justify significant monetary policy loosening in such an environment.
JM
(These markets are just terrible)
CG
that’s Barcap, which incidentally was the one bank that absolutely nailed the call
PM
Nailed the call on CPI?
CG
yep
PM
barcap were very blaise recently on market wobbles
PM
had to eat their words, ratehr
CG
consensus was 0.2, Barcap had 0.5
CG
@ReturnFreeRisk, doubt they’ll ignore it, thought he fed’s preferred measure of core PCE is still lower, and — this is key — inflation expectations continue to fall
PM
(Note that starstrike had rocket fuel for lunch)
JC
(starstrike and Old Hand, oops sorry. Don’t know where I got that number from. Might have been the worst number that I picked…)
CG
i’d expect CPI to steadily flatten in in the next month or two
PM
Okay — equities really rolling over now?
CG
US equities dipping a bit again, S&P now at 1140 flat
JM
Anyone in the mood for some more bad news?
CG
Dow holidng steady
PM
JM — hit us
CG
bring it on, JM, pile is already high
PM
My dow future says -490…
JM
This just in from Neil Soss, CS’s chief economist, and a US AV fav
CG
yep
JM
Unemployment Expectations, a leading indicator of initial jobless claims is flashing red. The 24 percentage point spike over the last 3 months is the 4th largest on record. Three-month gains of 20 points or more happened five other times, all preceding or during past recessions. The good news from current jobless claims reports might be short lived, which could raise recession risk further from our model’s 30% probability last week.
JM
@Pantagruel — that’s already priced in.
CG
yep, claims were up this morning already, in fact, though it’s a volatile week-to-week number
JM
More from Soss
JM
Leading Track Record. Since 1978, unemployment expectations’ most significant lead time versus jobless claims is six months. Since the recent run-up in expected “bad news on jobs” has happened in the last two months, we might look for weekly jobless claims to rise late this year. But lead times vary, and we should be alert to the possibility of an earlier upturn.

Disconcertingly High Level. Unemployment expectations rose sharply to 46% in August from 31% in July. The August level has been sighted before and during each of the past five recessions since 1980. But there have been false signals at the 46% mark. So further deterioration from this point would be more worrisome for the outlook (and vice versa).

Rising Disconcertingly Fast. The 24 percentage point spike in unemployment expectations over the last three months is the fourth largest on record. Three-month gains of 20 points or more happened five other times – Aug 1979, May 1980, Dec 1981, Oct 1990, Feb 2001 – all preceding or during past recessions.

Jobless Claims on Watch. During those five past episodes, claims rose an average 8% in the same month. And in all but one of the past five occurrences (May 1980), claims were an average 10% higher four months later.

CG
let’s hope this is busted call #2 then
CG
but not at the rate we’re going
IK
Hi there
JC
Hey Izzi
CG
ladies and gentlement, izabela kaminska, superheroine scourge of the ETF universe
IK
Bonjour
IK
I’m purple
IK
excellent. Just like a roman senator
JM
(JM hides under table)
IK
which is fitting, as i’ve just done a post about Diocletian
IK
Anyway. what are we talking about?
IK
The meltdown?
CG
anything you want — how about some QE?
IK
Well seems like everyone has the sights on more QE
JM
Thomas Jefferson. W Jennings Bryan.
JM
You know, the usual.
JM
Hearts Spurs.
IK
But I don’t see how more QE can possibly help
IK
But my thoughts about more QE are well documented
CG
(speaking of irritatingly smart, it turns out that my colleagues are all more knowledgeable about american history than i am — and I’m the one effing American here)
IK
BTW – i would like to propose another controversial mind fart i’ve had
IK
One that no doubt serious economists and traders will dispell
CG
go for it
IK
Well.. say you’re a super smart hedgie
IK
Cardiff — you know — imagine yourself as one
IK
you eat at Nobu and such
CG
dear god
IK
Black cod
IK
Every day for lunch
CG
gonna need a new wardrobe
CG
khaki pants, white baseball hat, start using seasons as verbs
CG
anyways, go for it
IK
Anyway, say your view is the crisis is about to shift big time into deflation?
IK
What’s your winner trade?
JM
Lloyds?
CG
haha
IK
what’s the one thing plenty of hedgies have
CG
presumably you’re sending me to TSYs?
IK
and which is POISON during delftation?
IK
Leverage
CG
mais oui
IK
You do not want to be leveraged during deflation
IK
That is a killer
IK
If you think the price of your house is about to plummet
CG
indeed
IK
and you’re mortgaged to the eyeballs
IK
Your number one priority is paying back that mortgage
IK
Thus…. margin calls? Or strategic deleveraging on fear of deflation?
IK
In the empire of falling asset prices, those with big fat unchanging cash deposit accounts are winners
IK
See my point?
CG
(@praxis, i disavow the past)
IK
We are through the looking glass
JM
In the land of the blind, etc
IK
Arguably
CG
here it comes
CG
the payoff
IK
So, what’s the number one priority for the Fed? In my very very humble opinion
IK
Anything that helps support accumulated wealth
IK
and stops voluntary capital destruction
IK
And that my friends is not QE, which only takes Treasuries out of the system
IK
Of course, the psychological impact of QE is to be considered
JM
(Told you this was all about Jennings Bryan.)
IK
Since the public at large see QE as tantamount to money printing
JM
And Rick Perry
IK
It’s possible the Fed willd deploy the god maneuver
IK
With one hand, the Fed giveth (QE) and with other he taketh away (reverse repos)
IK
@cabin fever -” I see your point but you can not hold the currency of a country that is not going to pay its IOUs”
IK
I say irrelevant!
IK
I have bought into Chris Cook’s theory
IK
Money is just a yet to be redeemed tax credit
JM
Incidentally, I tried to get my head around MMT last night and I still don’t think I’ve absorbed this fundamental argument.
JM
If, however, you consider that money is best understood as a yet-to-be redeemed tax credit, that possibly says more about the nature of what savings and wealth have become than anything else.
CG
Izzi, a title for your next post: The Fed’s JOB plan
JM
(Ok, these mind melds HAVE to stop.)
IK
Well.. this is why i looked at Diocletian
IK
I will give you sneak preview of my post
JM
EXCLUSIVE
IK
not edited yet
IK
so i apologise for typos
IK
Faced with an inability to restore faith in the Roman denarius — on account of too much inferior debased coinage in circulation and not enough fresh plunder, booty, loot or taxation from new lands to make up the funding needs of his empire — Diocletian was faced with a major economic cataclism.

His first attempt to control the problem was to introduce a superior currency unit, one made up of much better quality metal. The hope was this would restore faith in the coinage and allow prices to stabilise.

It didn’t work — largely because the new coinage was introduced alongside the inferior one. Not only did it create a liquidity preference for the superior quality coinage, it also added to the money supply.

Diocletian’s second attempt was hardly more succesful. Faced with skyrocketing prices — which debased his soldiers earnings by the day — Diocletian decided to introduce a maximum price edict, punishable by death. (His top priority was, after all, always the trusted faith of his soldiers. If their salaries couldn’t pay for their needs, a mutiny could be at hand — a major risk for any emperor.)

Unfortunately, the edict did little to curb hyper-inflation or the capital destruction that came with it. The empire was too large and resources too low to police the price-lists effectively. The edict was mostly ignored (unless Diocletian himself happened to be in town) and in extreme situations the sword quickly became mightier than the coinage.

JM
I’ll do a live edit
JM
AV goes real time
IK
Which leads us to Diocletian’s third attempt to contain the monetary crisis — which happened definitely to be his most effective.

Having given up all hope on the currency itself, Diocletian still had the problem of paying his soldiers. To resolve this he developed a system of relative values (or barters), a move which called for an exhuastive cataloguing of the empire’s wealth, labour and land values.

While it arguably started out as a move to quell his soldier’s salary frustrations, it had the lucky side-effect of also restoring some semblance of order back to the Empire’s market prices.

The idea was simple. You started off with one day’s work as a soldier as your base. This entitled you to x amount of bread, x amount of clothing, x amount of wine (et cetera).

One day’s work of a soldier, meanwhile, was equal to two days’ work of an agircultural worker. Three days’ work of a soldier was equal to one day’s work of a lawyer, and so on. (NB – those relative values are hypothetical for the point of illustration only.)

Alongside that everyone’s work featured a taxable capacity too. This was described in terms of the caput. As a homogenous value unit this became a means of exchange in its own right too.

IK
@klaw – exactly
IK
So money is basically the surplus the govt lets you keep
JM
The perils of trying to adopt fiat money policies without a fiat money system?
IK
Of course, there was one major downside. The system implicitly called for tying people to their land or their professions. (Some argue it was even a precussor to sefdom and workers’ guilds.)
IK
So without the tax credit surplus (which you could call Marx’s hated capitalist surpluses)
IK
You become tied to the land
IK
Freedom disappears
JM
Ah, now the Cook link emerges. (Slow here.)
IK
The surpluses are essential to give money a value, which is more than just about relative value labour
IK
Of course — I’m not saying we’re in this situation yet
IK
But it is interesting
JM
There was a useful soundbite I read yday, money as the something things are exchanged by, rather than for, as often taught.
JM
Yes, v interesting.
IK
yes that sounds interesting
IK
Anyway.. i confess, I’m an ancient historian
IK
Not an economist
JM
Here’s a more concrete question: what does this mean for the logic of running up deficits?
IK
so i wouldn’t trust me
IK
Deficits are ok providing… they can be matched by the country’s gdp and natural resource wealth
IK
I came up with a rogue equation
IK
But since i’m not a maths person… it’s probably stupid
IK
but it went something like
IK
Value of money = (GDP + natural resources) + (accumulated tax credit – debt)
JM
So is this all just a new theory of accounting, rather than economics?
JM
(… trying to adopt a Today show level of intereviewing)
IK
not sure. I have to go and lie down now I think
JM
Okay.
IK
too much for my head!
JM
Let’s wrap this up?
JM
JC, CG, PM…. anything else to say?
PM
Not much to add
JM
Let’s do a final scores on the doors.
JM
Phew
JM
Dow only down 460 points
CG
i’m done
JM
Dow Jones 10,940.74 -469.47 (-4.11%
JM
470, sorry
IK
“only down”
JM
S&P 500 1,141.53 -52.36 (-4.39%)
JM
Sorry, I forgot sarcasm had to be ” ” these days. The monopoly of irony.
JM
(For another post, on another blog.)
JM
FTSE 100 5,093.49 -238.11 (-4.47%)
EURO STOXX 50 2,214.99 -116.13 (-4.98%)
CAC 40 3,088.56 -165.78 (-5.09%
JM
10-year back around 2.05%
PM
Before we close…
JM
Hearts team news?
PM
No, was just going to share Kemp’s latest column
PM
On Fisher
PM
or was that covered above?
JM
Not here, but IK did a post on it earlier.
PM
Yes — this was a follow up to Izzy’s stuff
PM
Dallas Fed President Richard Fisher’s speech today “Texas Employment Growth; a Dissenting Vote; and the Ugly Truth” is as always brilliantly insightful (H/T Alphaville for featuring it).

http://www.dallasfed.org/news/speeches/fisher/2011/fs110817.cfm

Fisher’s hawkishness on inflation remains controversial (reasonable people can disagree in this area).

But he is the pre-eminent thinker in the Federal Reserve System who combines theoretical understanding with practical insight (a plaudit he shares on the supervision side with Thomas Hoenig at the Kansas City Fed).

Section 2 of the speech on the reasons for his dissenting vote, and the corrosive role of uncertainty in undermining economic growth, is well worth reading.

Fisher has beaten me to a column on the subject. The uncertainty problem goes quite a bit further than just the issue of the federal budget or regulatory policy. Other corrosive sources of uncertainty cover climate change policy, soaring raw materials costs, questions about the rise of Asia and the decline of the OECD economies, and monetary policy itself.

Conduct a thought experiment. When did you last hear a senior policymaker in North America/Western Europe give an unambiguously positive speech about the outlook for the economy/environment/living standards?

There have been plenty of Churchillian warnings blood sweat and tears ahead, tough adjustments etc. But the end goal is never terribly bright.

Bernanke, Mervyn King and the rest never actually sound optimistic.

Without confidence, uncertainty becomes paralysing. In that respect, President Franklin Roosevelt was right about there being nothing to be afraid of but fear itself.

No amount of monetary and fiscal prestidigitation can offset the confidence deficit. Endlessly twiddling the fiscal and monetary knobs actually becomes a source of uncertainty itself as households worry about inflation, deflation, growth and jobs, all at the same time.

RAW is market chatter – information that has not been formally tested through traditional journalistic channels (PRs etc). The story might be complete rubbish, but if we believe there is some substance to it we will say so. Either way, Reader Beware.
JM
Cool.
JM
This point
JM
Conduct a thought experiment. When did you last hear a senior policymaker in North America/Western Europe give an unambiguously positive speech about the outlook for the economy/environment/living standards?
JM
Also goes to Andy Haldane’s latest speech.
JM
One practical role for macro-prudential policy in these situations is to communicate about risks to the system
to better enable these risks to be priced. If risk is over-priced, and agents over-pessimistic, communicating
that might help in correcting overshoots in risk appetite. That was precisely the role played by Roosevelt’s
inauguration speech in 1933. It provided an alternative, more optimistic, popular narrative for financial
markets. It aimed to reduce the risk of psychological contagion. It worked.
JM
(It would also be a reason to end MLs!)
JC
Nothing much to add in closing… but 10y Tsy back above 2% (2.04%)
PM
Indeed John
JM
Haldane link: http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/speeches/2011/speech513.pdf
PM
Haldane: “Close AV”
JM
It’s an interesting point though, Obama and Cameron are both by nature optimists, perhaps it’s time for a little Panglossian Brussilian to move west.
PM
And one more before we go…
JM
Yes please
PM
Plan to restore euro zone stabiltiy…
PM
From a guy called Engels
PM
At BarCap
JM
Any relation to…
JM
(Incidentally, Tristram Hunt’s recent bio of Engels was pretty good)
PM
F Engels
PM
rank
PM
Frank
JM
(Not the BarCap economist, the other one)
PM
hehe
PM
Hang on — having posting probs
PM
A proposal to restore euro area stability
Fears that the sovereign debt crisis in Europe will continue to escalate – with fiscal sustainability now being questioned in Spain, Italy and even France – have contributed significantly to the surge in volatility worldwide. Given the trajectory of the crisis since it broke out, we believe these concerns are legitimate. The piecemeal approach followed by European policymakers thus far has not advanced toward a sustainable solution and, in many cases, has made the crisis worse.

In the medium to long term, only two solutions appear possible: either Europe moves towards much better coordinated economic and fiscal policies, rather than applying ad-hoc measures and financial band aids to manage the crisis, or an eventual restructuring in Italy or Spain becomes increasingly likely. The latter, however, is too risky. This is not a zero-sum game. The costs of restructuring exceed by several orders of magnitude those of increasing economic and fiscal policy coordination, even for Germany. The banking systems of core economies would suffer severe losses that could damage sovereign balance sheets. France and possibly other core countries would be the next target for the market.

PM
But a higher degree of policy coordination is likely to face political and possibly legal constraints in the near term (eg, EU Treaty changes). Even the issuance of Eurobonds is likely to take time, possibly years, to implement. Europe cannot afford to take that long.

We believe an intermediate solution while Europe prepares the steps necessary to flank monetary union with better integrated fiscal and economic policies would help move Spain and Italy away from the bad equilibrium where, on their own, they might be unable to stabilize the reinforcing negative dynamics of spreads and default probabilities.

Our proposal would require a new Euro Area Borrowing Authority (EABA) that would provide credit enhancement to bonds issued by member countries. They could effectively replicate eurobonds (EBs) while EB issuance gets eventual political approval. Crucially, EABA guarantees (and eventually EBs) would be of relevance only for new issuance, as it is the marginal cost of debt that has deteriorated debt dynamics in Italy and Spain. Existing debt would not be guaranteed or swapped into EBs, as it has low average coupons and, thus, does not pose a threat to sustainability. This limits the upfront resources needed for EABA. There would be a ceiling on the flow and stock of EABA guarantees/EBs. Countries with high debt and/or deficit developments would be required to enter a macroeconomic adjustment program with a view to converging to a lower debt ceiling. We believe that programs to bring countries into declining debt-to-GDP paths, including a realistic adjustment path, are likely to be more successful than they have in the past. Debt crises are no longer confined to emerging markets. Europe has suffered first hand the costs of fiscal profligacy, and the related lessons are being learned.

Germany and other core countries have a unique opportunity to use this crisis as leverage to better coordinate economic and fiscal policies and thereby effectively move closer to an economic union. The Franco-German summit on 16 August points in the right direction.

PM
I’m done.
JM
okay
JM
Let’s try and finish on an optimistic note
JM
As per Andy Haldane’s suggestion
JM
Okay, we tried.
PM
hehe
PM
Just sling a tin hat up
PM
Emoticon
JM
Bye everyone, until next time.
JM
Remember we have “normal” and US Markets Live tomorrow.
JM
I’ll be reviewing the latest biographies of left wing revolutionaries.
JM
And recounting how Hearts beat Spurs 3-0 in an epic game at the Lane.
JM
Have a good evening everyone.
JM
Thanks JC, PM, CG, IK.
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