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Macro Live transcript 5 Nov 2010

Markets Live chat transcript for the chat ending at 12:58 on 5 Nov 2010. Participants in this chat were: Neil Hume, FT Cardiff Garcia Tracy Alloway

NH
Hello again
NH
and sorry for being late
NH
was just getting some lunch
NH
very hungry
NH
anyway
NH
this is the second edition of Marco Live
NH
covering today’s US payrolls
NH
and your host is
NH
Cardiff
CG
good morning
CG
the finale in this week’s trilogy
CG
of us econ events after the elections and qe2
NH
end of the GAMMA week
CG
short on time, so we should get moving, eh
NH
(outlaw – yellow)
NH
so what’s on the agenda?
CG
gonna do a super-fast roundup of other recent employment indicators
CG
review last month’s payrolls and what to look for today
CG
then neil with some estimates and market chatter
CG
some bets from the rabble
CG
nd then the report, analysis, etc
CG
this first part will be fast, breathless, data flying around
CG
here we go
NH
go for it
NH
let’s have the round up
CG
A lightning round of this week’s employment numbers
CG
first the good
CG
ISM employment indices jumped a bit
CG
for both manufacturing and services
CG
ADP (Automatic Data Processing) private sector figures for October
CG
higher than estimates, came in at +43k vs +22k expected
CG
and revised september from -43k to -2k
CG
but said manufacturing employment down, contra ISM
CG
still, so far all better than expected
CG
now the less good
CG
weekly Initial unemployment insurance claims up to 457k
NH
not good
CG
but that number is volatile
CG
4-week avg pretty much flat for the year in that 450k+ range
CG
which is historically high
CG
and labor productivity up 1.9% annual for Q3 after falling in Q2
NH
(Pesto you are about to learn the pain of zapper)
CG
which somewhat perversely is a bad thing for employment
NH
zap
Warning to rude and abusive commenters – your ability to comment will be terminated immediately and permanently, without warning. Henceforth, FTAlphaville has instituted a One Strike and You Are Out policy. We’ve had enough. We are going to clean up these pixels once and for all.
NH
(Understood Captain)
NH
what about the report itself
NH
what are forecasts?
CG
about 60k overall
CG
+60k is the consensus
CG
with private sector +75k
CG
here’s the thing
CG
last month came in at -95k
CG
but ex-census for September it was -18k
CG
private sector was +64k, public sector -82k
NH
Gac makes a good point, does any of this really matter anymore because the Fed is just going to keep printing money till inflation falls
CG
so forecasts are for public sector declines to be much smaller
CG
seems optimistic to me
NH
indeed
NH
right a couple of bits of comment
NH
and then tracy wants to come in
NH
Jim Reid of Deutsche first
NH

Clearly the focus for the day ahead will be on October’s US employment report, although in our view this report is probably of less significance than it has been in recent times, unless of course we get a payrolls number significantly different from expectations. DB’s economists are expecting +80k for non-farm payrolls and +90k for private payrolls while they expect the unemployment rate to edge lower to 9.5% (Bloomberg consensus +60k, +80k and 9.6% respectively). Other data out today includes US pending home sales and consumer credit (both for September) as well as September’s UK PPI data. Today is a much quieter day on the earnings front with 8 S&P 500 and 6 DJ Stoxx companies expected to report. In Monday’s EMR we will update our table looking at the performance of earnings season. We are now through the peak weeks for the US so it’ll be useful to take stock.

NH
A more optimistic view appears in our economist’s latest GEP where they suggest that QE2 could lift US GDP by ¼ to ½% in 2011 and ¾% point or more in 2012. It could also raise headline consumer price inflation by ¾% over the year ahead. Interestingly they also say that in light of this week’s mid-terms, failure to pass a fairly broad extension of Bush’s tax cuts would depress GDP by a percentage point in 2011, easily enough to swamp the estimated beneficial effects of QE2 over the year ahead. Obama yesterday was suggesting openness to discussion on this point which may have also helped the market.
CG
go for it
NH
and RBS
NH
The consensus for October payrolls is +60k against a decline of 95k last month. RBS expects a slightly larger gain of 75k. Headline payrolls are set to print positive for the first time since May. Layoffs related to the temporary Census workers have been a drag on the headline figure for months, but the vast majority of those layoffs have already taken place. Thus, the drag on the headline from Census-related layoffs was likely minor last month. Away from the Census, we look for the government to have shed about 30k workers in October. In September, government jobs excluding the census workers fell by 82k, with most of that due to a 76k plunge in local government payrolls that was the fifth largest decline in that series since at least 1955. Given the stress on state and local budgets, there may be some downside risk to our forecast of a 30,000 drop in the government sector.
NH

Meanwhile, private payrolls could have firmed somewhat in October, growing by perhaps 105k. Initial claims have been on a modest downtrend in recent weeks but remain in the 450k to 465k range that has prevailed since late March, pointing to little change in the underlying pace of layoffs. On the hiring side, firms mostly seem to be waiting to see the outcome of the November elections before committing capital to investment and hiring, so we see few changes on either front in October relative to September. Average hourly earnings could have inched up by 0.2% in October, while the average workweek may have held steady at 34.2 hours. The unemployment rate was probably unchanged as well last month, holding at 9.6%.

The key takeaway is that the numbers are unlikely to be sufficiently strong to get the unemployment rate down and that’s one of the key reasons why the FOMC has restarted its asset purchase program. +150k would be a game changer for FX market and be sufficient to see investors take profit on their USD shorts. A weaker number would only add to the sense that QE is here to stay. Moreover, with European and Asia growth continuing to show signs of decoupling from the US, it seems unlikely that the USD will benefit from a sub-consensus number. Further USD weakness is expected until the pull of fair value becomes more acute.

NH

The RBS US payrolls survey shows bond bullishness abounds. 74% see the next 25bp move for 10s as down, the net of those seeing yields moving down (minus those seeing yields up) is the most bullish since August 2008. 26% are going with a market rally and buying, double the average. 55% will buy a dip, 25% will sell a rally, highest read since Nov 2007. Moreover, we have noticed that those who were calling this a bond bubble 2 months ago are now suddenly strong bulls with no mention of bubbles.

This is worrying. It tempts me to look for a shake-out. But let us not forget that yields rallied >50bp after that August08 survey/payrolls. Sometimes consensus is right (it is just very unsettling to be in their company). RBS Economics, FX & Rates Strategy

NH
Tracy
NH
are you there?
TA
Hi guys
TA
I just wanted to pop in with some comment on consensus
TA
I’ve got Steven Englander at Citi
TA
Who’s now looking for the “sweet spot” in NFPs
CG
Hi
TA
That’s neither too high, nor too low
TA
Here it is
TA
With the FOMC, the ECB and the BoE out of the picture market focus is shifting towards the final big event of this week – the October NFP. Ahead of the release later today, the Bloomberg median forecast is a positive gain of 60K. The median was around +40k a week ago before the ADP payroll number and the ISM employment components were released. Citi’s economists penned a forecast of +50k last Friday and have not revised upwards, although they have noted that the surprise risk to their forecast is likely to be above +50k. The Bloomberg median for private-sector payrolls is +80K.
TA

For the past couple of months leading in to payrolls, the market has been ‘rooting’ for a payrolls number that would not indicate a renewed recession, but that would not be positive enough to scare the FOMC out of QE2. We would have put the ‘sweet spot’ for the September payrolls number released in October at a range of -50k to +50k. With the FOMC now having already embarked on QE2, we think the sweet spot has shifted. Now the market wants to see positive growth and so long as payrolls aren’t averaging more than +125k per month for several months, the FOMC is unlikely to scale down QE2. So the new sweet spot is probably something like +25k to +125k.
TA

A NFP number in the sweet spot should be positive for market risks sentiment and therefore risk sensitive exchange rates like AUDUSD and SEKCHF. A NFP reading that is outside the sweet spot is probably negative for EURUSD. Strong US growth as indicated by payrolls above +125k would get the market buzzing about the US having better 2011 prospects due to a more proactive central bank. Weak US growth as indicated by a payrolls number below +25k will spook the market that the Fed has spent its last bullet and it may not be enough, which will cause risk appetite to slide and lead to a reduction of the market’s sizeable EURUSD longs.
NH
sweet spot
NH
interesting idea
TA
Yep!
TA
Anyway, see ya
NH
thanks for that
TA
I’m gonna go to the Anchor
TA
And check out our room booking
NH
lucky you
NH
don’t eat there
NH
right
NH
bets pls everyone
NH
the number is coming
NH
it’s out
NH
market has rallied
NH
FTSE 100 up 12
CG
wow
NH

05Nov10 RTRS-U.S. OCT NONFARM PAYROLLS +151,000 (CONSENSUS +60,000) VS SEPT -41,000 (PREV -95,000), AUG -1,000 (PREV -57,000)
12:30 05Nov10 RTRS-US OCT PRIVATE SECTOR JOBS +159,000, LARGEST MONTHLY RISE SINCE APRIL, (CONS +75,000), SEPT +107,000 (PREV +64,000)
12:30 05Nov10 RTRS-U.S. OCT GOVERNMENT JOBS -8,000 VS SEPT -148,000 (PREV -159,000)
12:30 05Nov10 RTRS-U.S. OCT JOBLESS RATE 9.6 PCT (CONSENSUS 9.6 PCT) VS SEPT 9.6 PCT (PREV 9.6 PCT)
12:30 05Nov10 RTRS-U.S. OCT AVERAGE HOURLY EARNINGS ALL PRIVATE WORKERS +0.2 PCT (CONS +0.1 PCT) VS SEPT +0.1 PCT, TO $22.73 VS SEPT $22.68; OCT YEAR-ON-YEAR EARNINGS +1.7 PCT
12:30 05Nov10 RTRS-U.S. OCT AVERAGE WORKWK ALL PRIVATE WORKERS 34.3 HRS (CONS 34.2 PCT) VS SEPT 34.2 HRS, FACTORY 40.3 VS 40.2, OVERTIME 3.0 VS 3.0
12:30 05Nov10 RTRS-U.S. OCT FACTORY JOBS -7,000 (CONS +5,000) VS SEPT -2,000 (PREV -6,000)
12:30 05Nov10 RTRS-U.S. OCT GOODS-PRODUCING JOBS +5,000, CONSTRUCTION +5,000, PRIVATE SERVICE-PROVIDING JOBS +154,000, RETAIL +28,000
12:30 05Nov10 RTRS-U.S. OCT AGGREGATE WEEKLY HOURS INDEX FOR ALL PRIVATE WORKERS +0.4 PCT VS SEPT
NH
151,000
NH
outside the sweet spot
NH
a beat!
NH
upward reveision to Sept
CG
so much for too optimistic
NH
jobless rate not budged
NH
Cardiff
NH
what about the private sector number
NH
is that as good as it look?
CG
big surprise for both private and public
CG
+159k for private
CG
it would appear to be
NH
oh dear
NH
can Bernanke cancel QE2
CG
any market reaction overseas worth noting?
NH
OK, so the FTSE 100 was down before it came out
NH
now up 12 points at 5,877
NH
just getting the dollar now
NH
OK
NH
stronger
NH
against the euro $1.4074
NH
although the GBK
NH
still seems strong
NH
$1.6202
CG
manufacturing employment flat again, big jumps in retail, health care, food services
NH
more market reaction
CG
btw worth noting that GS got this one wrong again
NH

RTRS-EUROPE’S FTSEUROFIRST 300 <.FTEU3> RISES 0.4 PCT TO 1,111.72 POINTS AFTER U.S. DATA
12:31 05Nov10 RTRS-BUND FUTURE FALLS 43 TICKS ON THE DAY TO SESSION LOW OF 130.00
12:32 05Nov10 RTRS-EURO FALLS TO DAY’S LOW VS STERLING OF 86.67 PENCE
12:34 05Nov10 RTRS-U.S./GERMAN 10-YEAR GOVERNMENT BOND YIELD SPREAD BRIEFLY WIDENS BY 8 BPS TO 20 BPS AFTER U.S. PAYROLLS DATA
NH
Goldman
NH
wrong
NH
surely not
NH
tell me more
CG
revised estimates downward yesterday, from +50k to +25k
NH
oh dear
NH
as the Hatzius
CG
still surprised this bit wasn’t bigger given last month’s big fall
CG

Employment in local government, excluding education, decreased by 14,000
over the month and has fallen by 123,000 over the past 12 months.
CG
Ha! Well played @Lemmy: “The Republicans will be quick to claim credit”
NH
Felix Salmon, the new CJR eco guru doesn’t like the report
NH

felixsalmon

I know everybody’s saying this is a positive jobs report, but the official release reads in a very depressing way: http://bit.ly/c4GYiG

NH
do we have the release
NH
so we can put up some of the commetns?
NH
before we look at that
NH
we are going head to head with the WSJ’s market beat
NH
they have a nice graphic
NH

* 2:38 pm
* by Dave Kansas
* Add a Comment

The so-called broader unemployment rate remains stuck at 17%. This includes folks who have stopped looking for work and those who have settled for part-time jobs. Also on the downside: 42% of those unemployed — 6.2 million folks — have been out of work for more than six months. So, big headline, but some of the internals are still not terribly pretty.

NH

* 2:37 pm
* by Matt Phillips
* Add a Comment

Here’s one thing from the report that the markets will like. The forward leaning “temp workers” area continues to grow:

Within professional and business services, employment in temporary help services continued to increase in October, with a gain of 35,000. Temporary help services has added 451,000 jobs since a recent low in September 2009.

NH
and that’s it
NH
we have a bit more
NH
might not be coherent
NH
but anyway
NH
that’s the statement
NH
and here are the highlights/lowlights
CG
maybe what felix means is that even at 151k, it’s still not much above
CG
what you need to keep pace with entry into the labour force
CG
which is about 125k
NH
ok thanks for that
NH
here’s the release
CG
by the way U6
NH


Nonfarm payroll employment increased by 151,000 in October, and the
unemployment rate was unchanged at 9.6 percent, the U.S. Bureau of
Labor Statistics reported today. Since December 2009, nonfarm payroll
employment has risen by 874,000.

Household Survey Data

The number of unemployed persons, at 14.8 million, was little changed
in October. The unemployment rate remained at 9.6 percent and has
been essentially unchanged since May. (See table A-1.)

Among the major worker groups, the unemployment rate for adult men
(9.7 percent), adult women (8.1 percent), teenagers (27.1 percent),
whites (8.8 percent), blacks (15.7 percent), and Hispanics (12.6 per-
cent) showed little change in October. The jobless rate for Asians was
7.1 percent, not seasonally adjusted. (See tables A-1, A-2, and A-3.)

The number of long-term unemployed (those jobless for 27 weeks and
over) was about unchanged over the month at 6.2 million. In October,
41.8 percent of unemployed persons had been jobless for 27 weeks or
more. (See table A-12.)

Both the civilian labor force participation rate, at 64.5 percent, and
the employment-population ratio, at 58.3 percent, edged down over the
month. (See table A-1.)

The number of persons employed part time for economic reasons (some-
times referred to as involuntary part-time workers) fell by 318,000
over the month to 9.2 million, partially offsetting large increases in
the prior 2 months. These individuals were working part time because
their hours had been cut back or because they were unable to find a
full-time job. (See table A-8.)

About 2.6 million persons were marginally attached to the labor force
in October, up from 2.4 million a year earlier. (The data are not sea-
sonally adjusted.) These individuals were not in the labor force, want-
ed and were available for work, and had looked for a job sometime in
the prior 12 months. They were not counted as unemployed because they
had not searched for work in the 4 weeks preceding the survey.
(See table A-16.)

Among the marginally attached, there were 1.2 million discouraged
workers in October, an increase of 411,000 from a year earlier. (The
data are not seasonally adjusted.) Discouraged workers are persons not
currently looking for work because they believe no jobs are available
for them. The remaining 1.4 million persons marginally attached to
the labor force had not searched for work in the 4 weeks preceding the
survey for reasons such as school attendance or family responsibilities.

CG
dropped slightly to 17.0 from 17.1
CG
that’s the rate that includes people who stopped for looking for work
NH
markets holding steady at the moment in europe
CG
plus part-timers who’d rather have full-time gigs
CG
still above the 16.5-16.7 level from the middle of the year
CG
and long-term unemployed stayed about flat, but
CG
that’s still very high, more than 6 million
NH
so all in all Cardiff
NH
good at the headline level
NH
less so underneath?
CG
possibly, better than expected certainly, but
CG
obviously still not enough to get back to a trend that makes
CG
for sustainable growth
CG
but may need some time to dig in deeper
NH
OK
NH
you have all day to do that Emoticon
CG
yep, and by the way
NH
but this report
NH
does seem to suggest the Fed jumped the gun
NH
I guess more criticism will be coming Ben’s way
CG
probably, yes
CG
but for a sobering big picture view
12:46PM
NH
Right
NH
we have 45 mins to the US markets open
NH
and the Dow futures look like it will open 50 points higher
NH
Cardiff
CG
yep, gonna be interesting to see this gets interpreted
NH
what’s then next big data point state side?
CG
well, trade balance figures next week and
CG
could do something on g20, and
CG
i hear heads of state are now watching macro live
CG
so we might have to get meta
CG
otherwise
NH
EmoticonEmoticon
CG
could wait for inflation/housing/gdp numbers later in the month
NH
when’s GDP due?
CG
23rd
CG
CPI on the 17th
NH
(zippy – it’s the only one we can get access too on our screens. I guess it’s free)
NH
we will have to think about it
CG
yep
NH
perhaps on a day when we have a number of releases
NH
Fed mins
NH
that would be another good one
NH
for the last meeting
NH
find out what dissent was in the room
CG
but we’ll give everybody some lead time
CG
yes indeed
NH
getting some good tweets through on the figs
NH
here’s the Reformed broker
NH

ReformedBroker

Big Jobs Number, but what’s under the hood? Headline still 9.6%? Doctors?

CG
9.6 headline staying flat was the one thing the consensus got right
NH
Right
NH
thanks for that
NH
before we go
NH
has anyone seen this?
NH
Sergey Aleynikov Legal Defense Fund
NH

Dear friends,

As you may be aware, I was arrested on July 3, 2009, and charged by the federal government with stealing trade secrets of Goldman Sach’s high-frequency trading platform. My family and I appreciate the words of support we have received following my arrest. Many of you have asked if there is anything else you can do to help. In response to those requests, we recently established the Sergey Aleynikov Legal Defense Fund, through which friends, family and supporters can make donations to help defray the significant costs I have incurred and will incur to prove my innocence.

NH

Before my arrest, I had been an IT professional for the past nineteen years, during which time I built an exemplary reputation, first at IDT and later at Goldman Sachs, as VP of its Equity Trading Division. Since my arrest I have been working hard to protect my freedom, clear my name and restore my reputation. My trial is scheduled for November 2010, and I have retained private counsel to represent me. In addition to counsel, I must also retain experts in computer science and other fields to demonstrate that I am innocent of the government’s charges. As you can imagine, this is a very expensive undertaking. It has been estimated that my legal and expert fees from now through trial will exceed $500 thousand.

This amount would be difficult for me to pay during the best of times. The pending Indictment and the publicity surrounding the charges have made it impossible, because I cannot get employment in my field. The start-up company for which I was to have started working has withdrawn its job offer. Although I have been to interviews at no fewer than twenty-five other companies, each of them has declined to make me a job offer because of the pending criminal charges. My wife and I have put every resource available to us, including a mortgage on our home, into the defense, but it is simply not enough. As a consequence, I cannot afford to mount the necessary defense without the support of those who believe in me.

NH

As stated above, the Sergey Aleynikov Legal Defense Fund has been established so that my supporters have a way to help defray my legal defense expenses. Contributions to the Fund will not go to me directly, instead, they will go into a trust that is required to use the contributions to pay my legal defense costs. Anything you can give would be greatly appreciated by me and my family.

Contribution options:

* By credit card or Paypal account:

In order to donate by credit card, just click on the “Donate” image on the right:

* By check:

Make your check payable to the “Sergey Aleynikov Legal Defense Fund” and send it to the attention of the fund Trustee, Philip F. McGovern, Esq. at Connell Foley LLP, Harborside Financial Center, 2520 Plaza Five, Jersey City, New Jersey 07311.

NH
not hugely good PR
NH
for Goldman
CG
no, guess they’ll be distracted from getting payrolls wrong
NH
sad story
NH
this was the high frequency guy
NH
who went to another firm
NH
with all the codes, right?
CG
believe so, yeah
12:54PM
NH
right the biggest brain in the blogsphere has give his verdict on the payrolls numbers
NH

Alea_

Both the civilian labor force participation rate, at 64.5 % and the employment-population ratio, at 58.3 % edged down over the month.

CG
employment pop ratio was at 58.7% in sept
CG
that actually is a fairly substantial fall, i think
NH
OK
NH
OKay
NH
thanks for that Cardiff
NH
time to sign off
NH
and get ready for the open of Wall Street
NH
thanks for logging on today
NH
I guess QE2 has rather stolen our thunder this time
CG
yep, i think so
CG
was fun, though
NH
still good to look at the numbers in some depth
NH
and thank you rabble
NH
thanks for logging on
NH
have a good weekend everyone
CG
yes, thanks ROTR, we’ll let you know about the next one soon
NH
bye
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