Markets live chat transcript for the chat ending at 21:52 on 29 Sep 2008. Participants in this chat were: Paul Murphy (PM) Stacy-Marie Ishmael (SMI) Sam Jones (SJ) Neil Hume (NH) Bryce Elder (BE)
PM:
This is crisis is WAY out of control
PM:
Lunch AND dinner disrupted on the same day.
SMI:
Really was hoping for a quiet evening in.
PM:
But we are both posting from home
SMI:
But before we look at the matter at hand – the meltdown on the Dow et al – let’s have a quick recap of the past 24 hours
PM:
I suspect our servers are a bit stressed
SMI:
We’ve had B&B, Fortis, Glitnir, Hypo
SMI:
you mean, other than everyone?
SMI:
The vix is above 48, US investment grade CDS is tracking steadily wider, the commercial paper market is frozen
PM:
Okay okay – my prob was that i had another AV window open – which is tricky when doing ML
PM:
And Stacy — ive accidently closed my Skype chat — can you msg me back in?
SMI:
The Dow is holding up well – given the circumstances
SMI:
Down about 600 points, but off its lows
PM:
For those who dont know, the House has narrowly voted down the MOAB/TARP
SMI:
To the shock and awe of markets everywhere
PM:
But everyone is assuming this is just politico brinkmanship
PM:
Deal will be fixed in some form
PM:
Or Bush will enact emergency measures
SMI:
it’s the ‘some form’ that’s worrying
PM:
Sorry, that’s George Bush, the US president, to use the FT style guide
SMI:
And of course traders are expecting (hoping, praying) for a rate cut
SMI:
To be frank, really not clear what good that will do
SMI:
This is a systemic collapse of faith in the global financial system
SMI:
Rate cuts, massive increases in the TAF, central banks trying to drown markets with liquidity
PM:
Here;s some stuff Bryce sent over earlier
PM:
Perhaps gives a hint as to the lack of panic
PM:
Merrill Lynch’s Sheryl King on the TARP vote
House votes down TARP in current form
The administration’s “troubled asset relief program” did not pass the House
of
Representatives. Although the plan was voted down we think it likely that,
rather
than concede defeat, this simply will bring the parties back to the floor
for another
vote or back to the drawing board for adjustments needed to sway the small
number of votes required for passage. We continue to anticipate some form
of
government rescue package will be agreed upon at in the near future.
Next step may be Fed action, not Congress
Fed Chairman Bernanke, in recent testimony before Congress, noted that the
outcome of failure for the TARP was a recession, and possibly a deep one.
As
such, it is possible that the next move may come from the Fed, in the form
of a
rate cut, rather than a more exotic program. Such a move would not come as
a
surprise to the market as the futures are pricing this in already, and
given that the
next FOMC meeting is a long way off on October 29, there may be a
temptation to
do so earlier than later.
PM:
Pricing in the worst case scenario
Absent some program designed to restart credit creation the odds of a
weaker
growth outlook throughout 2009 rise substantially. Assuming credit creation
falters, it will be harder to call a bottom in the housing market in
mid-2009 and will
make it difficult for consumers to recover from the substantial headwinds
they are
facing. The result could be a prolonged period of weak growth as the
deleveraging process continues unabated.
Future credit strains likely
As it stands now, the tightening of credit conditions could put severe
strains on
the economy and cause default rates to rise. Our estimates already suggest
that
delinquency rates on a wide swath of consumer and corporate loans could
almost
double, to levels not seen since the early 1990s, and threaten to load even
more
nonperforming loans onto bank’s already burdened balance sheets. Without
some
way to lower the amount on non-performing assets on bank balance sheets,
the
outlook for credit creation, and the economy, is quite dim.
SMI:
I’ve got some stuff from UniCredit
SMI:
Similarly – ah – well see for yourselves
SMI:
What should have been a day of hope turned into a day of desperation. We are facing a systemic crisis of confidence in the global financial system that is pushing us increasingly close to a complete meltdown. I thought the agreement on the TARP in the US would shore up confidence in the system and set us on the long and difficult road to recovery. Today’s market reaction however has been far worse than I expected, and signals a complete and widespread collapse in the confidence in the financial system. This crisis of confidence seems grossly out of proportion with the albeit fragile fundamentals of the financial system and of the global economy. But it is now threatening to turn into a self-fulfilling run on the system which could trigger a global financial and economic meltdown
PM:
ANON — jsut a point on Aanglo Irish
PM:
I made a HUGE clanger earier.
PM:
Anglo Irish is NOT AIB
PM:
Only down 18 per cent or so
SMI:
Now here’s some context
PM:
Stacy — im re-booting my web connection
SMI:
As we go into the close – the bill will come back in some form
PM:
Its thru a company called Virgin Media
PM:
Came highly recommended
SMI:
What’s not clear is what further concessions will have to be made to get the bill passed
SMI:
And even then, if that will be enough
SMI:
There’s also been a globalisation of the panic
SMI:
Problems in Iceland, Germany
SMI:
HinTat – all the analogies are to the Great Depression
SJ:
Hello SMI. I’ll keep you briefly company while the boss is rebooting
SMI:
We’re moving from isolated runs on individual banks to a systemic run on the financial system
PM:
One very good point below
SJ:
So… end of the world?
SJ:
I fell off my chair when i saw they voted it down
SMI:
Was on the train when I started getting the headlines. Bankers around me were flipping out
PM:
How come news of TARP vote wasn;t disclosed first on the BBC?
SJ:
Pestowire is only for UK regulatory announcements
PM:
Sam you are very welcome
SJ:
Did you read his interview with the Indy?
SJ:
He has a special ISDN line direct to the BBC
PM:
Im not streaming, so apols if this has been said
PM:
But noting spider’s comment below….
SJ:
For broadcasting news ahead of the FSA live from Muswell Hill
PM:
the market had discounted a TARP yes vote — and decided that wasnt enought
PM:
How do you possibly un-discount the no vote — adn then price in a fudge
PM:
which wont fudge it properly anyway
SMI:
Austiran Bank I am bereft at the lack of my Markit terminal, but by around mid afternoon in London (i.e. before all this broke) Iceland CDS was already significantly wider
PM:
Im getting the kids to count the can in the pantry
SJ:
I wouldnt want to be holding any US equities to be honest. Even the stalling of the Tarp -assuming it eventually goes through – will be catastrophic. Banks will pull back on financing, and given that its the end of the quarter, i think we’ll see bankruptcies on Main Street…
SJ:
Has anyone seen that Moody’s is mulling a downgrade of Citi?
SMI:
The marks are also going to be atrocious this quarter end. Whopping writedowns on top of “synergies” like acquiring near failed thrifts
SJ:
Anyway – i’ve got to run.
SJ:
What a propitious number to close down – as shorty notes below
SJ:
Appropriately apocalyptic
SJ:
’till the morning PM and SMI, readers.
PM:
Somebody got a Dow and S&P reading for me — and how about the Vix?
SMI:
Vix above 48 at around 48.4 and trending higher, says my options guy
SMI:
Consider for a moment how Asian markets are going to react to a 700-point fall in the Dow
SMI:
And there’s really nothing the US can throw at the markets that they haven’t tried already
PM:
That shorting ban worked wonders
PM:
The FSA should bottle it
PM:
Might even pay for themselves
NH:
and logged in after 10 mins of trying
NH:
Mrs H not very impressed
NH:
but these are amazing times
SMI:
Quick recap of the financials – Wachovia down 82 per cent, Goldman down 11.6 per cent, National City 63.3 per cent lower
NH:
where did the Dow close
PM:
Ive got connection probs also
PM:
fancy that

PM:
So theDow has closed 6.60 lower
SMI:
Hi Neil. Just doing a summary of the banking sector, via thrifts, Wall Street A-Team and stressed regional banks
NH:
are u in the office Paul?
PM:
Dunno the future — had to close the City INdex box to try and save bandwidth
PM:
kate not impressed either
PM:
Kids couldnt give a feck
NH:
Dow 10,365.45 -777.68 (-6.98%)
Nasdaq 1,983.73 -199.61 (-9.14%)
S&P 500 1,106.57 -106.44 (-8.77%)
NH:
Bungle Bank are still advertising
BE:
Assuming my computer works, care for some comment on the Tarp fallout?
SMI:
weakis – Nasdaq had been beaten up even prior because of big fall in AAPL
PM:
See we’ve got a post from Lina Saigol, below
NH:
(Mrs H – Watching Secret Millionaire. Not remotely interested by the demise of the western banking system)
NH:
welcome Bryce – any comment appreciated
BE:
Here’s Deutsche Bank’s strategist Guilherme Paiva
PM:
At something of a loose end these past 15 months or so
PM:
That is unfair of course
BE:
The U.S. House of Representatives rejected the Executive branch spon-
sored TARP bill in a close vote. There were 227 “nays” and 206 “ayes” -
the bill needed 218 “ayes” to be approved.
So now what? In the best case scenario, the U.S. Senate could vote on
Wednesday October 1 (Tuesday is a jewish holiday) and the House could
follow up on Thursday October 2. In theory, support for the TARP bill is
stronger in the Senate than in the House.
Trading limits. These are the rules for the 3 main Latin cash equity markets:
1) Brazil: a 30-minute halt if the market moves by 10%; an 1-hour halt if the
market moves by 15%. However, there are no trading limits (circuit break-
ers) during the last 30 minutes of trading;
2) Mexico: there are no limits for the overall market. The Stock Exchange
has discretionary power to halt trading in single names if they move by 15%;
3) Chile: there are no limits for the overall market. The Stock Exchange has
discretionary power to halt trading in single names if they move by 15%.
PM:
where’s zoomy boy???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
BE:
We upgraded Brazilian equities on September 21 on the assumption
TARP would be approved by the U.S. Congress. In our view, the TARP
is key to 1) limit systemic risk in the U.S. financial system and 2) mitigate
downside risk for the U.S. economy in 2009. If the bail-out plan is not ap-
proved in a timely manner, we fear the U.S. economy could go through a
more prolonged and deeper recession than in our base case scenario
(3Q08-1Q09).
Our top stocks ideas in our base case and alternate scenario are:
a) TARP approved: Vale (PBR.N, Buy, USD46.6), CSN (SID.N, Buy,
USD24.0), Petrobras (PBR.N, Buy, USD46.6) and Tenaris (TS.N, Buy,
USD42.0);
b) TARP rejected: Walmex (WALMEXV.MX, Buy, MXN38.0), Femsa
(FMX.N, Buy, USD39.1), PAC (PAC.N, Buy, USD26.3) and CCU (CCU.N,
Buy, USD32.0)
BE:
It’s a school night, so I guess it’s past Zoomy’s bedtime.
NH:
have we established whether George W can force this bill through. IS that possible. Could he use his powers as commander in chief and say the nation is in danger and pass the bill??
SMI:
NH: It just would not fly. There’s nothing in the Patriot Act that would allow it, though there may be obscure bits of National Security legislation lurking about
NH:
(on Bungle Bank – aren’t all desposits heading to Santander now??)
PM:
Sorry Bryce– didnt see you there — i stil cant establish a proper connection
BE:
No worries. Have some comment from RBS …
PM:
Jsut catching up with those fin highlights posted by Stacy
PM:
Quick recap of the financials – Wachovia down 82 per cent, Goldman down 11.6 per cent, National City 63.3 per cent lower
NH
BE:
Posting a note from Robert Lind’s strat team in london – I’ll post it in four parts, and it’s worth a bickie
Reminder to readers – if you arrived late and want to stop the dialogue ‘jumping’ as you catch up, hit the ‘pause auto-scrolling’ tab at the bottom right hand corner
SMI:
A couple of you mentioned capitulation – a word I’ve heard alot from traders today. The rest of them would get censored out, I suspect…
BE:
This isnít fun. How things have changed since early summer in 2007. Back then, I jokingly
suggested to the rest of the economics team that a good old-fashioned financial crisis would
liven things up and make things more interesting for economists. After all, I could fondly
remember the excitement of the ERM crisis for a young economist back in the early 1990s.
But a year on, the current crisis is beginning to pall. Admittedly, economists are in demand to
try and explain what is going on. But itís a gauge of how bad things are that, just when
economists are popular again, their ability to illuminate is severely compromised. Our
forecasting models are now obsolete. We canít say anything sensible about what will happen
in 2009 because we havenít got a clue what will happen over the next few days.
The House vote against the Paulson plan (aka the Troubled Assets Relief Programme or
TARP) was a nasty shock and markets reacted badly. The US Congress had moved rapidly
over the past week to prepare the legislation, in spite of serious misgivings in some quarters.
While the TARP was inevitably compromised, the broad outlines were still consistent with the
original Paulson-Bernanke plan. The plan would have given the Treasury an initial $250bn to
buy toxic assets with the potential for this to rise to $350bn and, ultimately, $700bn. The net
budget impact would have been smaller than this once the gains/losses were realized on the
assets. In addition, the legislation brought forward authorization for the Fed to pay interest on
bank reserves that it holds. Over the past year, the Fed has sometimes found it difficult to
stabilize the Fed funds rate at its policy target while injecting liquidity into money markets.
This system was due to change in 2011, but the Bill acceded to Ben Bernankeís request to
make the change from 1 October 2008. This now looks in doubt, given the vote, but the Fed
is still some way from the balance-sheet constraint that the change would have addressed.
PM:
Shall we close this at 9.30 – or do people want it left open?
BE:
The TARP would have been an important step, but it couldnít resolve the crisis on its own
given that it didnít address the fundamental issue of the undercapitalization of the banking
system. More disturbing, there are growing signs of contagion. The UK, Belgian and Dutch
governments have part-nationalized Bradford & Bingley and Fortis. Money markets remain
under extreme stress. Three-month interbank interest rates are still elevated, in spite of
large-scale liquidity injections. The longer that interbank rates remain high, the greater the
risk of bigger problems in the banking system and the broader economy. These medium-
term concerns have triggered a renewed bout of risk aversion. Alongside yesterdayís sharp
fall in European equity markets, there was also a dramatic widening of spreads between
European government bond yields. The spread on 10-year Italian BTPs widened sharply
over German bunds yesterday. So far, European central bankers have reacted
phlegmatically, perhaps in the expectation that the US bail-out and their own liquidity actions
would help to restore calm. There was an announcement of further substantial coordinated
liquidity injections yesterday. But with markets now close to blind panic after the loss of the
TARP vote, the pressure is growing for coordinated policy action.
PM:
I jsut feel at a disadvantage cos cant see what anyone is saying until 5mins post
BE:
Actually, that’ll do for the RBS stuff, before it gets too confusing.
PM:
Cheers Bryce — v useful
NH:
City Index showing the FTSE 100 at 4,570
SMI:
Thanks for that Bryce. It seems analysts are quietly freaking out
SMI:
Pegnu – that’s rough on Hank P. Who would you have in his stead?
NH:
Thanks Carlo – did not think so. Do we know when they can try again with the bill?
SMI:
Praxiss stop with the showing off
SMI:
NH – It’s not clear but all indications are that it won’t be soon
PM:
I seem to be sorted

SMI:
Carlo – forget the gravitas, consider the demise of the overnight CP market
PM:
Thanks for advice below
PM:
And Bigbadbank – is that all?
SMI:
Gravity – on Wachovia, very good question
SMI:
Markets were generally unimpressed with MS / MUFG deal
PM:
Here’s the rally monkey, poor thing
BE:
Incidentally, just spoke to a Mayfair champagne sipper who argued: “market crashes never end in hope, they end in despair. Usually that takes years, but it feels like we’ve moved a lot closer to despair today. You could argue that it’s a good thing in the long run that the whole thing’s playing out in fast forward.” (I’m paraphrasing a bit.)
SMI:
One of my favourite panic indicators is the CNBC ‘octagon’
NH:
for the FTSE – best we have at the moment in the City Index quote showing 4,568-74
SMI:
When they’ve got 8 talking heads on the screen
SMI:
A couple of things to take into the Asian market open
SMI:
Watch gold and commods
NH:
interestin theory on Lloyds
SMI:
Consider the yen/USD
NH:
I think we should take Foxhounds advice. Let’s go and get rest
NH:
could be mayhem tomorrow
PM:
Im with Fox Hound also!
PM:
Everyone — thank you for joining
NH:
and I don’t want anyone to miss ROBERT PESTON ON THE BBC NEWS at 10.00pm
PM:
Ad thank you to my self-less colleagues
SMI:
Shorty – The Daily Show is the height of broadcast journalism
PM:
And sod my internet connection
NH:
because the BBC will undoubtedly have broken this story
PM:
Keep those straps tight!
NH:
am wearing my tin hat in bed tonight
BE:
Good night, and good luck.
SMI:
Tin Hat teddy bear!


NH:
and Throg – very funny on Pesto
NH:
I think we are going to Defcon 4 in the morning
NH:
need some food and a stiff drink
PM:
RIGHT GOODNIGHT!

NH:
I think you are right perhaps we need to go to Defcon 2
NH:
EFCON 5
This is the condition used to designate normal peacetime military readiness. An upgrade in military preparedness is typically made by the Joint Chiefs of Staff and announced by the United States Secretary of Defense.
DEFCON 4
This refers to normal, increased intelligence and the heightening of national security measures.
DEFCON 3
This refers to an increase to force readiness above normal. Radio call signs used by American forces change to currently classified call signs.
DEFCON 2
This refers to a further increase in force readiness just below maximum readiness. The most notable time it was declared was during the Cuban Missile Crisis, although the declaration was limited to Strategic Air Command. It is not certain how many times this level of readiness has been reached.
DEFCON 1
This refers to maximum readiness. It is not certain whether this has ever been used, but it is reserved for imminent or ongoing attack on US military forces or US territory by a foreign military power.