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Markets live transcript 19 Jun 2008

Markets live chat transcript for the chat ending at 12:09 on 19 Jun 2008. Participants in this chat were: Paul Murphy (PM) Neil Hume (NH)

PM:
Hello – welcome to Markets Live
PM:
This is FT Alphaville’s daily markets chat.
NH:
You made it back in one piece then.
PM:
From Ascot? I did
PM:
Rather nice day out, actually.
PM:
Chopper really is the way to travel to and from the races.
NH:
Any stories?
NH:
Who was there?
PM:
Few hedgies. Certain member of the W1 set who you know – selling bundles of HBOS on the way to the course. He’ll have covered his losses on the track quite easily this morning.
PM:
Oh, and there was a certain guy from Icap who said:
PM:
“Oh, you are from Alphaville. You work for Neil Hume then.”
PM:
Then he said – in front of Louise Armistead from the Sunday Tel:
PM:
“You guys did really well breaking the Bradford & Bingley story”
PM:
Ms Armistead was not amused. She broke the story of course
NH:
Who else?
PM:
Andrew Regan had a box.
PM:
A big double box actually, next door but one to the Queen. Looked like he’d recruited most of guests from Cipriani’s
NH:
Any stories?
PM:
Well, just got that extra detail on Informa – which we can come back to.
PM:
Did a post on that earlier.
PM:
First tho – thank banks.
PM:
PM:
Let’s look at HBOS
PM:
trading statement out this morning
PM:
how have the shares reacted?
NH:
pretty badly
NH:
been as low as 297p
NH:
now down 14.5p at 304.25p
NH:
that’s a drop of 4.6%
NH:
and leaves the stock 29p above the rights price
NH:
and this mornibg’s fall has nothing to do with the evils of short selling
NH:
it is all down to a frightening rise in arrears
PM:
Wot you meant there was a real reason for going short — something other than manipulation!!
NH:
yep
NH:
this may come as news to the FSA but there is a fundamental reason to be short of the UK’s biggest mortgage lender
NH:
it is all down to a frightening rise in arrears
NH:
now, these may be in line with HBOS’s expectations
NH:
but they seemed to have scared the living daylights out of the market
PM:
PM:
Lets have the detail then!
NH:
before we do
NH:
here’s the outlook statement from HBOS
NH:
and it makes pretty depressing reading
NH:
We expect the UK economy to slow further in 2008, with a modest rise in unemployment and low interest rates, accepting that inflationary pressures will restrict the MPC’s ability to reduce base rates below current levels. We now expect house prices to fall by up to 9% in 2008.

As previously indicated, asset growth is slowing and the rate of deposit growth is targeted to outstrip that for assets in 2008. We are achieving substantially better pricing on new lending in our key markets and, as a result, the decline in the net interest margin seen in 2007 is expected to moderate in 2008. We anticipate relatively stable and potentially improving margins in 2009

NH:
First half performance will be impacted by negative fair value adjustments to the Treasury Trading Book, but we look forward to a stronger second half year. For the year as a whole we expect a resilient performance.
PM:
Arrears detail?
NH:
right
NH:
here goes
NH:
Mortgage arrears rose 17% to £4,953m (41% annualised) in the
first five months of this year
PM:
NH:
I know
NH:
and it gets worse
PM:
really?
NH:
yep
NH:
now the HBOS mortgage book breaks down as follows
NH:
30bn of Buy to Let loans, £31bn Self Cert and
£5bn of other specialist lending, with the remaining
£171bn classified as mainstream lending.
NH:
and here’s another worrying stat from the statement
NH:
around 1/3 of the mortgage portfolio is expected to re-price this year
PM:
PM:
so that’s a third of the mortgage customers of UK’s biggest mortgage lender facing higher mortgage payments this year
NH:
yep
NH:
back to the arrears
NH:
specialist segments are showing the fastest pace of deterioration, rising 24% so far this year (58% annualised
NH:
Value of debt in arrears in the specialist mortgage book (equally split between self cert and Buy to Let, 26% of total mortgage book) has risen to 3.09% end of May v 2.59% end December
PM:
right
PM:
any analyst comment??
NH:
loads
NH:
I will start with Cazenove
NH:
Mortgage arrears

- BTL book grown by 13% in first five months to £30bn

- BTL arrears grown by 41% (by value)

- Self cert arrears up 22% while other (includes CCJ) +20%
- repossessions (unallocated) +51%

- in contrast mainstream arrears are up just 7%

The average LTV on the impaired book is 69% for the specialist mortgages, up from 66%, while mainstream is at 55%.

Our estimates assume 43bp impairment on the Specialist mortgage book in 2009e which increasingly looks too low given the pace of growth in arrears and outlook for house prices. Our revised estimates for Bradford & Bingley are 66bp on its specialist book for 2009E and historically HBOS has incurred a higher impairment partly reflecting its greater exposure to Self Cert within the mix.

We will revise estimates fully after the conference call but the sensitivity is that 100bp impairment (compared to 43bp) on the specialist book would lower our 2009E EPS for HBOS by 5.3p (XR).

NH:
here’s some more
NH:
HBOS has released its pre-close trading statement. Key points:
Retail
Deposit competition is strong but May was a record month for HBOS and the group continues to expect deposit growth in excess of asset growth (Caz: +12% vs +5% loan growth).

Retail margin is similar to H2 2007 (159bp) and is expected to remain stable through the year (Caz 2008E: 156bp). HBOS expects good growth in net interest income (Caz 2008E: -2%). Around 1/3rd of the mortgage book is expected to reprice this year, benefiting asset spreads.

NH:
New disclosure on split of mortgage lending: mainstream 72%, buy-to-let 13%, self-cert 13% and “other” 2%.
HBOS expects house prices to fall 9% this year. This will impact impairment but performance so far is described as “robust”.

Impaired mortgage loans increased 17% since Dec07 to £4,953m. Our estimates assume the mortgage charge rises from 3bp (H207) to 11bp in 2008E.

The arrears rate on mainstream mortgages has increased 10bp to 143bp, and on specialist loans it is up 50bp to 309bp. BTL arrears are 159bp (Dec: 128bp) and self-cert are 395bp (Dec: 318bp). The BTL figure is lower than B&B (185bp) but self-cert is higher (B&B: 359bp).
Unsecured credit quality is stable.

NH:
Corporate
Management reiterates the plan for single digit asset growth in 2008E (Caz: +7%), with stronger growth expected in H1. Deposits are flat.
Lending to UK property is 38% of total corporate lending. Within commercial property investment (19% of corporate lending) there is “very limited evidence” of rising tenant defaults.

There is little commentary on exposure to housebuilders other than to say HBOS operates mainly in the “niche” market segments and “debt safety is underpinned by collateral values including landbanks”.

The value of the investment portfolio has increased by £800m to £4.8bn, primarily due to new investments but is also net of £200m write-downs (including £0.1bn against housebuilders, which we estimate is c.50% of the total invested in this sector) and some positive revaluations.

NH:
“Evidence of corporate difficulty…is limited to specific (unnamed) sectors”. HBOS plans for higher impairment charges (Caz 2008E: +41%) and previously described any increase this year as likely to be “modest”.

NH:
Insurance & Investment
Household and motor sales are growing strongly.
Investment is expected to show good profit growth despite pressure on sales volumes from weaker markets.

International
The business is trading in line with management’s expectations.
Impairment is rising across all three businesses: Australia (higher interest rates), Ireland (in line with management’s expectations) and ENA (from a low base). We expect impairment to rise 80% in 2008.

Treasury
P&L write-downs have increased by £58m since the IMS on 29 April to £1,028m (Q1: £970m, Caz 2008E: £1,470m).

NH:
Post-tax write-downs taken directly to reserves have reduced by £49m over the same period (Q1: £1,874m, Caz 2008E: £2.2bn).
Monoline exposure has increased to £1,480m (Mar08: £970m). The negative basis book has seen significant downgrades: 77% of the £2.8bn bonds are AAA-rated (Mar: 92%), 10% AA+ (Mar: 8%) and the remainder (13%) is at B1 (with AA protection).

Outlook
HBOS expects a “resilient” performance, but weighted more towards the second half of the year.

Comment
The update on treasury is reassuring in terms of write-downs, although there is no additional detail on where the write-downs have been taken. Current trading is broadly in line with expectations, although rising impairment trends will remain the focus for investors – it is notable, for instance, that self cert arrears are higher than at B&B. In our view, impairment is rising more rapidly than management had indicated at Corporate, although consistent with our estimates at this stage.

PM:
bickie
Reminder to readers – if you arrived late and want to stop the dialogue ‘jumping’ as you catch up, hit the ‘pause auto-scrolling’ tab at the bottom right hand corner
NH:
this is from Citi
NH:
Deteriorating Retail Credit Quality – Mortgage
arrears rose 17% to L4,953m (41% annualised) in the
first five months of this year. The mortgage book
includes L30bn of Buy to Let loans, L31bn Self Cert and
L5bn of other specialist lending, with the remaining
L171bn classified as mainstream lending. Arrears trends
in the specialist segments are showing the fastest pace
of deterioration, rising 24% so far this year (58%
annualised). With house prices falling almost 5% in the
past two months (making HBOS expectation of a full-year
decline of 9% look somewhat optimistic) we would
anticipate a further significant deterioration in
mortgage credit quality as the year progresses. We note
that HBOS now describes unsecured impairment trends as
stable rather than improving
NH:
With house prices falling almost 5% in the
past two months (making HBOS expectation of a full-year
decline of 9% look somewhat optimistic) we would
anticipate a further significant deterioration in
mortgage credit quality as the year progresses. We note
that HBOS now describes unsecured impairment trends as
stable rather than improving.

NH:
Corporate Heavily Exposed to Property – With
corporate difficulty already apparent in some sectors,
HBOS expects a weakening economic outlook to result in
higher impairments. Slowing volumes, weakening margins
and lower investment returns exert further pressure on
earnings. 38% of the corporate loan book is property
related, including a L4.2bn exposure to the
housebuilding sector – a mixture of lending and equity
investments. While housebuilder earnings are expected
to fall, landbank values do provide some protection.

NH:
Some Areas of Reassurance – Despite increased funding
costs in 2008 a combination of better pricing on new
lending and re-pricing of existing assets means the
decline in group net interest margin ‘is likely to be
lower than in 2007′. HBOS has been able to fund
successfully, raising L8bn of term debt this year and
the company continues to anticipate an Equity Tier 1
ratio of 6%-7% post the rights issue. In addition,
there has been no deterioration in the Group’s treasury
portfolio since the end of March, although we note that
the weighted average external credit rating has
deteriorated on most asset classes.
NH:
this is from Bruce Packard at Pali
NH:
Confirmed last week that current trading, particularly mortgage arrears were within their expectations. More detail in this statement

Value of debt in arrears in the specialist mortgage book (equally split between self cert and Buy to Let, 26% of total mortgage book) has risen to 3.09% end of May v 2.59% end December – looks like the self cert were performing much worse than Buy to Let. But doesn’t strike me as surprising.

Writedowns -Since last statement on 29 April 2008, the negative fair value adjustments Treasury Trading Book taken through the Income Statement have increased by just £58m to £1,028m and the adjustments through equity have actually reduced. Much more detail in the Appendix which I haven’t been through yet.

NH:
Lots of detail on corporate exposure

For loans to finance specific commercial property investments where HBOS is the sole lender, which accounts for around two thirds of our UK property investment lending, the collateral comprises around 9,000 properties and 24,000 units, of which 95% by value are let. The largest 50 tenants account for 28% of the annual rental income. As at 31 March 2008, the indexed LTV for this portfolio was approximately 65%. We think share prices of listed commercial property sector is implying further large falls in commercial property values, but as yet defaults have not yet happened. HBOS disclosure shows how diversified their portfolio.

Lending and investment in the housebuilding sector at the end of May 2008 totalled £4.2bn (Dec 2007 £4.0bn), of which £3.5bn was provided in senior debt, £0.3bn in mezzanine, £0.3bn in loan stock and £0.1bn in equity finance. This last number seems low given they were buying companies such as Tulloch, Crest Nicholson, McCarthey and Stone.

NH:
Outlook

First bank to talk about a “modest” rise in unemployment Repeats guidance that margin decline in 2008 should be lower than the 9bp seen last year. Longer term, company looks forward to relatively stable and potentially improving margins in 2009.

Analyst thoughts

Our Rec is BUY, HBOS trading on 0.81x tangible book 08F (including rights issue). Shares have been bouncing all over the place down -54% Year to Date (versus -28% dilution from rights issue and scrip dividend) but has bounced 25% since it fell through the rights price. Nothing in the statement jumps out at us as overly negative or unexpected, our recommendation is BUY, very hard to call what the stock does through the rights period though.
NH: and finally this is from MF Global

The outlook for the rest of 2008 is:
- a slower economy & rising unemployment
- low interest rates, but little scope for further reductions
- 9% fall in house prices
- gradually rising corporate bad debts
- slower asset growth, which means lower costs 2008, lower revenues 2009

NH:
The upshot is:
- A very weak H1 result to be reported 31 July
- Treasury write downs now £1,028m, £58m above end April level
- Much lower profits from the private equity portfolio and write downs on
investments, including £100m on stakes in house-builders

HBoS is guiding for better times thereafter:
- higher margins on new lending
- no more treasury write-offs
But there is plenty of time for the economy to deteriorate faster than expected and mean that H2 is a disappointment
as well Mortgage arrears are 16% higher than December, but it is the message of higher corporate bad debt that concerns
us most, because this is where the £100s of millions of extra charges could come from

When HBoS was a pure lender to venture capital, now head of corporate Peter
Cummings wondered why HBoS was not investing in equity as well because that is
where the big profits were

NH:
Now he has an answer: the down-cycle is very public and painful for HBoS, while
VC can lick its wounds in private
- We forecast 56.6p EPS in 2008, 6% below consensus
- We forecast 66.8p in 2009, but expect to downgrade given strong message on
slower asset growth, home & abroad, in today’s statement
- HBoS trades 5.6x 2008 and 4.8x 2009 on existing numbers
- On 0.7x book, yielding 7.1% it is not expensive
- However, RBS is on a lower price to book and is less exposed to the UK
- Barclays and Lloyds TSB yield 10% and Barclays is less UK, Lloyds less risky
- HBoS rated Neutral given low valuation, but we would not want to own it

PM:
er, right — plenty to read there. thank you Neil
NH:
and obviously the HBOS news on arrears has spooked the rest of the sector
Royal Bank of Scotland Group (RBS:LSE): Last: 229.00, down 0.25 (-0.11%), High: 231.25, Low: 220.75, Volume: 52.92m
PM:
Alliance & L eics down 15.5 at 307
Barclays (BARC:LSE): Last: 318.75, down 7.5 (-2.30%), High: 323.50, Low: 313.50, Volume: 29.52m
Lloyds TSB Group (LLOY:LSE): Last: 336.00, down 5.25 (-1.54%), High: 340.00, Low: 330.00, Volume: 12.20m
PM:
Should also draw attention to the monoline stuff
PM:
HT did an interesting post on that earlier. Worth a read
NH:
NH:
anyway
NH:
the weakness in the banking sector has not affected the wider market
NH:
FTSE 100 up 21.6 points at 5,778.5
NH:
looks like miners and oils holding us up this morning
PM:
Hmmm
PM:
Note mention of L&G below…
PM:
Did you mention my mention of “warm buyers” from Ascot? here yesterday?
NH:
well we mentioned they were down yesterday and thought it must be somethinhg bearish
PM:
Well — my guy at the races changed his mind on the story
PM:
Reckons there was nothing behind it
PM:
So Will — get yourself out of the cooking pot. We have no info on L&G
NH:
NH:
right
NH:
we need to talk about this piece of RAW you brought back from the races
PM:
Not that raw!
PM:
Has seen the inside of a frying pan
NH:
stocks has been all over the place this morning
NH:
traded as low as 396p
NH:
then it rallied on the back of your story
PM:
We are talking about Informa here
NH:
touched 435p
PM:
Currently settled down somewhat at 428p
PM:
Some people have been cool on the prospect of a PE bid for Informa
PM:
hence the price dive over the two sessions
PM:
You were always keen on Providence Equity as the bidder, Neil
NH:
yes, we know that they had done lots of work
NH:
but what we did not know was how they would finance a deal
NH:
to recap
NH:
Informa’s equity value is around £2bn and its debt £1.25bn
NH:
raising that sort of money in this market to buy a media stock is a big sak
PM:
Certainly is — but we now know that Goldman are doing the financing on this, along with ING and JPMorgan.
PM:
Debt Package is a bit over £1.8bn.
PM:
Interesting to see the rates these PE boys now need to pay – libor plus 375bp. And 11.75% for junior high yield stuff.
NH:
so its 50/50- debt equity
NH:
that’s a massive move
PM:
Yep — debt/ebitda multiple is 6
NH:
how much equity was being put into buyout deals a year ago??
PM:
Dunno — 10%?
PM:
All the way along Providence have been planning to approach the Informa board around now. Been expected a fortnight of negotiation and then announcing an acquisition in the middle of July.
PM:
The first full planning meeting between Providence and its advisers was held a month ago.
PM:
They went thru which PE firms might join a consortium– top of their list was Blackstone, Hellman & Friedman and Carlyle Group.
PM:
Carlyle subsequently came on board. it seems
PM:
They identified UBM as the most likely trade buyer. Reed has anti trust issues – and in any case not a buyer of B2B titles.
PM:
Also ruled out McGraw Hill, Wolters Kluwer, Experian, Thomson Reuters and even Pearson..
PM:
They’ve also looked at the candover/Cinven possibility and concluded that an Informa deal is just too difficult to finance for them – they’d have to redo their entire existing capital structure.
PM:
Similar probs for Apax.
PM:
Providence have also looked at whether they should bid for the whole of Informa – or do a joint break-up bid with either Springer or Apax.
PM:
Bidding alone would be the simplest and give it most flexibility – but that also leads to risks that Springer or someone else might counterbid.
PM:
If they bid with Springer, Providence was planning on taking the B2B titles and also their “professional” division
PM:
Alternatively, if they bid with Apax, Providence would take academic and scientific &S and professional.
PM:
They reckon this route would give them the best chance of success – but it would be much more complex. They also think a break-up would be opposed by the current management.
PM:
Of course — this deal is just at the approach stage — yes
NH:
and it could all fall apart
NH:
but with UBM out of the running it does give Providence a clear shot and they have a party with which to offload assets
PM:
yep — but as Ben H refers to below we have no idea whether this will become a “done deal”
PM:
Just telling people what we know
NH:
but it does look as if the financing is available
PM:
Yep — and it is also worth stating bluntly — Providence are expecting to pay 550p a share to get this business
NH:
what, now that UBM have walked
NH:
i would have thought they would start at 475p
NH:
and go up from their
PM:
They were looking at this before UBM were on the scene
PM:
Maybe
NH:
anyway, I have an interesting note from Deutsche on Informa
NH:
would u like me to paste??
PM:
Yes please
NH:
Little negotiating leverage….
UBM has walked away from INF, but a new cash bidder has emerged. UBM
appears unwilling to “pay-up” and the “new” bidder will know this. Considering the
market’s intolerance for credit risk (real or perceived) we think that INF will be
negotiating from weakness. And, realistically, standalone prospects into 2009
must be worsening (hence a hefty downgrade in this note). But today’s move
prices much of this in. In our view, the very weakness in INF’s position now
makes a deal very likely. BUY maintained, target to 510p
NH:
Fall back bidder at low level only
There is a “fall-back” stock bidder – UBM – but it has a reputation for capital
discipline to protect and wouldn’t be generous. The new cash bidder knows this.
Bearing in mind the punitive treatment being meted out at present to any
company with real or perceived leverage issues, we think that INF shareholders
are likely to view any broadly reasonable offer as welcome. Bidders know this too.
So INF will struggle to get any kind of competitive tension into a sale process.
NH:
c500p looks the upper limit
We had previously argued that UBM was unlikely to offer more than to 500p
(stock equivalent, see note of 9-Jun) – so why would a cash offer be any higher
than this? It is worth stressing that UBM’s statement refers explicitly to a “nilpremium”
all-share merger – suggesting (using pre-publicity prices) only c400p.
Although INF says that trading continues inline with its expectations and has
repeatedly stated its comfort with its financing position, it is hard not to read
nervousness about trading and / or financing into its willingness to engage in talks
at prices way below the 630p in cash that management turned down in Nov-06.
NH:
2009 downgraded. Target down to 510p.
Considering the worsening macro evolution in recent months (low chance of rate
cuts) we have cut estimates once again (2009 down 17%). Our DCF based price
target (details pg 5, WACC 7.6%, g 2.7%) falls to 510p on the lower estimates.
Risks: trading – better / worse macro evolution, a series of industry exposures
within the various verticals served (financial, telecoms, commodities etc), M&A –
appearance / non-appearance of an offer from the new party and/or UBM.
NH:
What on earth was and is going on?
NH:
It is worth re-capping what has happened so far:
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